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Niccolo Machiavelli
09-09-2021, 03:11 AM
Post: #16
RE: Niccolo Machiavelli
(09-08-2021 09:23 PM)Glimmer Wrote:  
(09-07-2021 10:57 AM)karasu Wrote:  there seems to be some emphasis on the concept of Public SERVANT and that when the RICH RULE there is CORRUPTION and that EXCESSIVE WEALTH of the FEW leads to too much power by the FEW resulting in CORRUPTION which does not yield a healthy society

He wrote Il Principle (the Prince) which layed the groundwork for our modern western politics

Does this resembles something in our current political climate..?

"Machiavelli proposed that immoral behavior, such as the use of deceit and the murder of innocents, was normal and effective in politics. He also notably encouraged politicians to engage in evil when it would be necessary for political expediency."

Quote:Scientists Koopmans and Gommers receive Machiavelli Award 2020
News
The Machiavelli Award 2020 has been awarded to Marion Koopmans, professor of virology, and Diederik Gommers, chairman of the Dutch Society for Intensive Care. This was announced today by the Board of the Machiavelli Foundation. The award is granted annually for a remarkable achievement in the field of public communication.

“Koopmans and Gommers receive the prize because of their relentless efforts to make the science about the coronavirus accessible to a broad public. Enthusiastically and tirelessly, they are able time and again to distinguish facts and fables about the virus in an understandable language”, according to the jury report.

“The deliberate search for dialogue with doubters of science and opponents of policy has contributed to a greater understanding, especially among young people”, continues the jury report. “It is to Koopmans and Gommers’ credit that they have made informing a broad public their vocation alongside their daily work in the so urgent fight against the coronavirus. A vocation that both exercise with great self-evidence and skill”.

The context of the Machiavelli award is inverted

Every major politician who lied to the public to gain political or economical win for the elite received this award

"Someone Machiavellian is sneaky, cunning, and lacking a moral code. The word comes from the Italian philosopher Niccolò Machiavelli, who wrote the political treatise The Prince in the 1500s, that encourages “the end justifies the means” behavior, especially among politicians."


if you have not done so then I would really recommend to read the book I have mentioned to help better understand the Machiavelli System of Thinking.

He actually promotes Righteous WALK the TALK Leadership whenever possible and seems to believe that Corrupt Immoral Leadership is WEAK and will always FAIL

according to the book it explains that on some occasion he felt there may be need for "Machiavellian" tactics but it should be more of a "no other possible option" than an automatic default strategy and so the contemporary "Machiavellian" concept is a bit of a misunderstanding.

your post was good reading, thanks for the contribution
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09-09-2021, 09:02 PM
Post: #17
RE: Niccolo Machiavelli
(09-09-2021 03:11 AM)karasu Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 09:23 PM)Glimmer Wrote:  
(09-07-2021 10:57 AM)karasu Wrote:  there seems to be some emphasis on the concept of Public SERVANT and that when the RICH RULE there is CORRUPTION and that EXCESSIVE WEALTH of the FEW leads to too much power by the FEW resulting in CORRUPTION which does not yield a healthy society

He wrote Il Principle (the Prince) which layed the groundwork for our modern western politics

Does this resembles something in our current political climate..?

"Machiavelli proposed that immoral behavior, such as the use of deceit and the murder of innocents, was normal and effective in politics. He also notably encouraged politicians to engage in evil when it would be necessary for political expediency."

Quote:Scientists Koopmans and Gommers receive Machiavelli Award 2020
News
The Machiavelli Award 2020 has been awarded to Marion Koopmans, professor of virology, and Diederik Gommers, chairman of the Dutch Society for Intensive Care. This was announced today by the Board of the Machiavelli Foundation. The award is granted annually for a remarkable achievement in the field of public communication.

“Koopmans and Gommers receive the prize because of their relentless efforts to make the science about the coronavirus accessible to a broad public. Enthusiastically and tirelessly, they are able time and again to distinguish facts and fables about the virus in an understandable language”, according to the jury report.

“The deliberate search for dialogue with doubters of science and opponents of policy has contributed to a greater understanding, especially among young people”, continues the jury report. “It is to Koopmans and Gommers’ credit that they have made informing a broad public their vocation alongside their daily work in the so urgent fight against the coronavirus. A vocation that both exercise with great self-evidence and skill”.

The context of the Machiavelli award is inverted

Every major politician who lied to the public to gain political or economical win for the elite received this award

"Someone Machiavellian is sneaky, cunning, and lacking a moral code. The word comes from the Italian philosopher Niccolò Machiavelli, who wrote the political treatise The Prince in the 1500s, that encourages “the end justifies the means” behavior, especially among politicians."


if you have not done so then I would really recommend to read the book I have mentioned to help better understand the Machiavelli System of Thinking.

He actually promotes Righteous WALK the TALK Leadership whenever possible and seems to believe that Corrupt Immoral Leadership is WEAK and will always FAIL

according to the book it explains that on some occasion he felt there may be need for "Machiavellian" tactics but it should be more of a "no other possible option" than an automatic default strategy and so the contemporary "Machiavellian" concept is a bit of a misunderstanding.

your post was good reading, thanks for the contribution

I probably wil now!

But where Machiaveli can be of good will and integrity. A couple of centuries later people will use his knowledge for bad intentions, lies and deceit of the people

i.e. for own (politicial) gain

And they do so because it clearly works in current times..


However i find it very interesting that you are reading this. I suspect you will gain a lot more understanding about how political mechanisms these day work and why politicians act in a certain way. At least when you follow western/european politics

"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives . . . by maniacs for maniacal purposes"
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09-10-2021, 12:19 AM
Post: #18
RE: Niccolo Machiavelli
Jay Dyer On Machiavellian Statecraft and Conspiracies
Quote:For ancient and medieval leaders, the state, espionage, warfare and its deceptions, and the game of politics were considered “arts” that could only be mastered through study and practice. Systematizing everything from military camps, music, flags and colors, size and ranks, Machiavelli revolutionized the medieval army to become a hierarchical standard that would be the norm for future Europe. On another level, it also contains interesting aspects relating to psychological warfare, espionage and deception that are instructive for us in our day that help to grasp the level of deception we live under. The ancient arts of statecraft and deception are not forgotten, they have been perfected and through a high-tech overlay, are beyond anything Niccolo could have imagined.

He writes:

“Birds or dust have often discovered the enemy, for where the enemy comes to meet you, he will always raise a great dust which will point out his coming to you. Thus often a Captain when he sees in a place whence he ought to pass, pigeons taking off and other birds flying about freely, circling and not setting, has recognized this to be the place of any enemy ambush, and knowing this has sent his forces forward, saving himself and injuring the enemy. As to the second case, being drawn into it ((which our men call being drawn into a trap)) you ought to look out not to believe readily those things that appear to be less reasonable than they should be: as would be (the case) if an enemy places some booty before you, you would believe that it to be (an act of) love, but would conceal deceit inside it.”

Book VI is the best section for these machinations, and in it we see the following perennial tactics:

• Consult a rising enemy or possible sedition to give the impression of heeding his ideas and win him by feigned interest
• Send wise men into the enemy’s camp as fake attendants of a fake dignitary to assess the enemy
• Use false defectors to be spies in the enemy’s camp
• Conversely, capture the enemy’s commanders to gain intelligence on the opponent
• If you have suspected spies in your camp, disseminate false information to various parties to see how the enemy reacts to which
• Sacrifice a town or some pawns as a gambit to give the enemy a false sense of security
• Utilize religious and superstitious omens as far as your soldiers revere them or invent them
• Disguise your soldiers as the enemy
• Give the appearance of retreat to lead the enemy into a trap
• Leave an open encampment for the enemy with fresh, albeit poisoned, supplies
• Never cause an enemy to despair, since he will only fight more desperately and possibly defeat you
• Use a subterfuge of a fake illness in your camp that leads the enemy to think you are weak
• Communicate among your generals and men with secret ciphers and codes the enemy cannot decode
• Use propaganda and stories to create a boost of morale among your men

The Art of War.

The Prince.

Many more could be listed, but these are the most interesting and in our day, these tricks are used by the elite, not on foreign powers primarily, but as the bases for mass deception, with a massive surveillance state, poisoned food and water, false media reports, and countless other ruses. One might think from this list Machiavelli is immoral and devious, but for him, these are necessary facts of war with the enemy, not on the populace itself. The goal of war is not virtue for him, but simply to win at all costs. Yet winning at all costs does not mean being sadistic or cruel or a brute, it means learning the art of war to be a just ruler and by so doing, win the admiration of your soldiers and homeland. Far from corruption, Machiavelli castigated the corrupt leaders of his day and it serves as an apt warning to ours. Corruption and effeminate degeneracy among the elite does not lead to power, it leads to the loss of power. As far as one concedes to evil and vice in his own heart, especially the ruler, to that degree does he lose his power and become subservient to the passions.

He concludes:

“But let us turn to the Italians, who, because they have not wise Princes, have not produced any good army; and because they did not have the necessity that the Spaniards had, have not undertaken it by themselves, so that they remain the shame of the world. And the people are not to blame, but their Princes are, who have been castigated, and by their ignorance have received a just punishment, ignominiously losing the State, (and) without any show of virtu….

Our Italian Princes, before they tasted the blows of the ultramontane wars, believed it was enough for them to know what was written, think of a cautious reply, write a beautiful letter, show wit and promptness in his sayings and in his words, know how to weave a deception, ornament himself with gems and gold, sleep and eat with greater splendor than others, keep many lascivious persons around, conduct himself avariciously and haughtily toward his subjects, become rotten with idleness, hand out military ranks at his will, express contempt for anyone who may have demonstrated any praiseworthy manner, want their words should be the responses of oracles; nor were these little men aware that they were preparing themselves to be the prey of anyone who assaulted them.”

“There are three classes of people: those who see. Those who see when they are shown. Those who do not see.”
― Leonardo da Vinci
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09-10-2021, 04:10 AM
Post: #19
RE: Niccolo Machiavelli
(09-09-2021 09:02 PM)Glimmer Wrote:  
(09-09-2021 03:11 AM)karasu Wrote:  
(09-08-2021 09:23 PM)Glimmer Wrote:  
(09-07-2021 10:57 AM)karasu Wrote:  there seems to be some emphasis on the concept of Public SERVANT and that when the RICH RULE there is CORRUPTION and that EXCESSIVE WEALTH of the FEW leads to too much power by the FEW resulting in CORRUPTION which does not yield a healthy society

He wrote Il Principle (the Prince) which layed the groundwork for our modern western politics

Does this resembles something in our current political climate..?

"Machiavelli proposed that immoral behavior, such as the use of deceit and the murder of innocents, was normal and effective in politics. He also notably encouraged politicians to engage in evil when it would be necessary for political expediency."

Quote:Scientists Koopmans and Gommers receive Machiavelli Award 2020
News
The Machiavelli Award 2020 has been awarded to Marion Koopmans, professor of virology, and Diederik Gommers, chairman of the Dutch Society for Intensive Care. This was announced today by the Board of the Machiavelli Foundation. The award is granted annually for a remarkable achievement in the field of public communication.

“Koopmans and Gommers receive the prize because of their relentless efforts to make the science about the coronavirus accessible to a broad public. Enthusiastically and tirelessly, they are able time and again to distinguish facts and fables about the virus in an understandable language”, according to the jury report.

“The deliberate search for dialogue with doubters of science and opponents of policy has contributed to a greater understanding, especially among young people”, continues the jury report. “It is to Koopmans and Gommers’ credit that they have made informing a broad public their vocation alongside their daily work in the so urgent fight against the coronavirus. A vocation that both exercise with great self-evidence and skill”.

The context of the Machiavelli award is inverted

Every major politician who lied to the public to gain political or economical win for the elite received this award

"Someone Machiavellian is sneaky, cunning, and lacking a moral code. The word comes from the Italian philosopher Niccolò Machiavelli, who wrote the political treatise The Prince in the 1500s, that encourages “the end justifies the means” behavior, especially among politicians."


if you have not done so then I would really recommend to read the book I have mentioned to help better understand the Machiavelli System of Thinking.

He actually promotes Righteous WALK the TALK Leadership whenever possible and seems to believe that Corrupt Immoral Leadership is WEAK and will always FAIL

according to the book it explains that on some occasion he felt there may be need for "Machiavellian" tactics but it should be more of a "no other possible option" than an automatic default strategy and so the contemporary "Machiavellian" concept is a bit of a misunderstanding.

your post was good reading, thanks for the contribution

I probably wil now!

But where Machiaveli can be of good will and integrity. A couple of centuries later people will use his knowledge for bad intentions, lies and deceit of the people

i.e. for own (politicial) gain

And they do so because it clearly works in current times..


However i find it very interesting that you are reading this. I suspect you will gain a lot more understanding about how political mechanisms these day work and why politicians act in a certain way. At least when you follow western/european politics



an interesting element to the book is showing why such schemers will ultimately FAIL. Many examples in the reading how corruption leads to Failure in both Systems and People.

people think they are smart using "machiavellian scheming" but as the book explains, such scheming is not a path to PROSPERITY nor is it advocated as a primary means of strategy.

I'm really glad I have read this before I read "The Prince". I purchased both from the GoodWill store and thought I should read this one first to help me better understand Machiavelli and what I would read in "The Prince"
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09-10-2021, 04:15 AM
Post: #20
RE: Niccolo Machiavelli
(09-10-2021 12:19 AM)jho Wrote:  Jay Dyer On Machiavellian Statecraft and Conspiracies
Quote:For ancient and medieval leaders, the state, espionage, warfare and its deceptions, and the game of politics were considered “arts” that could only be mastered through study and practice. Systematizing everything from military camps, music, flags and colors, size and ranks, Machiavelli revolutionized the medieval army to become a hierarchical standard that would be the norm for future Europe. On another level, it also contains interesting aspects relating to psychological warfare, espionage and deception that are instructive for us in our day that help to grasp the level of deception we live under. The ancient arts of statecraft and deception are not forgotten, they have been perfected and through a high-tech overlay, are beyond anything Niccolo could have imagined.

He writes:

“Birds or dust have often discovered the enemy, for where the enemy comes to meet you, he will always raise a great dust which will point out his coming to you. Thus often a Captain when he sees in a place whence he ought to pass, pigeons taking off and other birds flying about freely, circling and not setting, has recognized this to be the place of any enemy ambush, and knowing this has sent his forces forward, saving himself and injuring the enemy. As to the second case, being drawn into it ((which our men call being drawn into a trap)) you ought to look out not to believe readily those things that appear to be less reasonable than they should be: as would be (the case) if an enemy places some booty before you, you would believe that it to be (an act of) love, but would conceal deceit inside it.”

Book VI is the best section for these machinations, and in it we see the following perennial tactics:

• Consult a rising enemy or possible sedition to give the impression of heeding his ideas and win him by feigned interest
• Send wise men into the enemy’s camp as fake attendants of a fake dignitary to assess the enemy
• Use false defectors to be spies in the enemy’s camp
• Conversely, capture the enemy’s commanders to gain intelligence on the opponent
• If you have suspected spies in your camp, disseminate false information to various parties to see how the enemy reacts to which
• Sacrifice a town or some pawns as a gambit to give the enemy a false sense of security
• Utilize religious and superstitious omens as far as your soldiers revere them or invent them
• Disguise your soldiers as the enemy
• Give the appearance of retreat to lead the enemy into a trap
• Leave an open encampment for the enemy with fresh, albeit poisoned, supplies
• Never cause an enemy to despair, since he will only fight more desperately and possibly defeat you
• Use a subterfuge of a fake illness in your camp that leads the enemy to think you are weak
• Communicate among your generals and men with secret ciphers and codes the enemy cannot decode
• Use propaganda and stories to create a boost of morale among your men

The Art of War.

The Prince.

Many more could be listed, but these are the most interesting and in our day, these tricks are used by the elite, not on foreign powers primarily, but as the bases for mass deception, with a massive surveillance state, poisoned food and water, false media reports, and countless other ruses. One might think from this list Machiavelli is immoral and devious, but for him, these are necessary facts of war with the enemy, not on the populace itself. The goal of war is not virtue for him, but simply to win at all costs. Yet winning at all costs does not mean being sadistic or cruel or a brute, it means learning the art of war to be a just ruler and by so doing, win the admiration of your soldiers and homeland. Far from corruption, Machiavelli castigated the corrupt leaders of his day and it serves as an apt warning to ours. Corruption and effeminate degeneracy among the elite does not lead to power, it leads to the loss of power. As far as one concedes to evil and vice in his own heart, especially the ruler, to that degree does he lose his power and become subservient to the passions.

He concludes:

“But let us turn to the Italians, who, because they have not wise Princes, have not produced any good army; and because they did not have the necessity that the Spaniards had, have not undertaken it by themselves, so that they remain the shame of the world. And the people are not to blame, but their Princes are, who have been castigated, and by their ignorance have received a just punishment, ignominiously losing the State, (and) without any show of virtu….

Our Italian Princes, before they tasted the blows of the ultramontane wars, believed it was enough for them to know what was written, think of a cautious reply, write a beautiful letter, show wit and promptness in his sayings and in his words, know how to weave a deception, ornament himself with gems and gold, sleep and eat with greater splendor than others, keep many lascivious persons around, conduct himself avariciously and haughtily toward his subjects, become rotten with idleness, hand out military ranks at his will, express contempt for anyone who may have demonstrated any praiseworthy manner, want their words should be the responses of oracles; nor were these little men aware that they were preparing themselves to be the prey of anyone who assaulted them.”


yep, that's it for me, not as a means of knowledge to instruct me in seeking power but to better see and understand the deceptions we live under.

My Conscience is DOUBLE CLEAR Tongue
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09-10-2021, 04:20 AM
Post: #21
RE: Niccolo Machiavelli
reading Machiavelli to better understand the Political/Social Systems, Deceptions, Propoganda, Leaders and Schemers

reading Thich Nhat Hanh "Living Buddha Living Christ" to inspire manifestation of a peaceful flow with the go in spite of the above elements Big Grin
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