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The Mystery of the Mongols
05-01-2019, 04:35 AM
Post: #1
The Mystery of the Mongols


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05-01-2019, 06:22 AM
Post: #2
RE: The Mystery of the Mongols
Read Gregory Bar Hebraeus' Chronography for an eyewitness account of the Mongol invasion of Iraq and the sack of Baghdad. This was probably the pivotal moment in the collapsing of the golden age of Arab civilization. I would post a link to the book but the last time I tried that I was blocked from access to it and other treasures for some time Smile
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05-01-2019, 07:09 AM
Post: #3
RE: The Mystery of the Mongols
(05-01-2019 06:22 AM)Skookum Charlie Wrote:  Read Gregory Bar Hebraeus' Chronography for an eyewitness account of the Mongol invasion of Iraq and the sack of Baghdad. This was probably the pivotal moment in the collapsing of the golden age of Arab civilization. I would post a link to the book but the last time I tried that I was blocked from access to it and other treasures for some time Smile

Does he talk about the Mongols requesting Baghdad to surrender? Or was the conflict already too far at that point? I know that Iran and Iraq tend to view the Mongol invasion much more negatively than other places, because it seems they got the brunt of the more savage aspects of it.

But if I know the Mongols, they likely gave everyone a fair chance to join them, before settling on utterly destroying them.
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05-01-2019, 07:52 AM
Post: #4
RE: The Mystery of the Mongols
(05-01-2019 07:09 AM)Chaos Reigns Wrote:  
(05-01-2019 06:22 AM)Skookum Charlie Wrote:  Read Gregory Bar Hebraeus' Chronography for an eyewitness account of the Mongol invasion of Iraq and the sack of Baghdad. This was probably the pivotal moment in the collapsing of the golden age of Arab civilization. I would post a link to the book but the last time I tried that I was blocked from access to it and other treasures for some time Smile

Does he talk about the Mongols requesting Baghdad to surrender? Or was the conflict already too far at that point? I know that Iran and Iraq tend to view the Mongol invasion much more negatively than other places, because it seems they got the brunt of the more savage aspects of it.

But if I know the Mongols, they likely gave everyone a fair chance to join them, before settling on utterly destroying them.

Concerning the Taking of Babel (Baghdad).


HULABU, King of Kings, went down to BAGHDAD; and BAJU also arrived from BETH RHOMAYE. And the armies of the men of BAGHDAD sallied forth to meet the TATARS in battle. And those who stood at their head (i.e. were their captains) were: the Great Amir, a KURD, who was called 'BAR KURAR', and DAWITHDAR the Little, a slave of the Khalifah. And the two [504] sides (or, hosts) remained facing each other, without engaging in battle, for twenty-three days. Then straightway on the fourth day [of the week], on the eighth day of the first month of the ARABS, in the year six hundred and fifty-six (A.D. 1258), which is the year fifteen hundred and sixty-nine of the GREEKS, BAJU NAWIN and his troops drew nigh to a place which is called 'the Grave of AHMAD', on the western side of BAGHDAD, and the BAGHDAD troops approached and the armies met each other in battle, and the company of BAJU NAWIN was broken, and the BAGHDAD troops were triumphantly victorious. And the Amir SULAIMAN SHAH and his army were on the walls of BAGHDAD.
And when the evening had come, BAR KURAR, an old man, said unto DAWITHDAR, a young man, 'This time God hath given us the victory. It is right that we should go into our houses and rest, and then we will sally forth again and attack forthwith.' The young man, however, was puffed up, and did not want to go in, and both of them passed the night outside. And because those BAGHDAD troops were encamped on low-lying ground, the TATARS went and made a breach in the banks of the great canal of water [fed], from the TIGRIS, and floods of water poured down on them at midnight. And they began to flee from the waters, and their bows, and their arrows, and the sheaths of their swords were soaked with water. And when the day broke the TATARS of the battalions of HULABU returned, and the battle continued until the ninth hour of the fifth day [of the week]; and the BAGHDAD troops were defeated and stricken helpless, and BAR KURAR was killed, and DAWITHDAR fled and went into the city.

Then BAJU and his troops came and encamped on the western side of BAGHDAD, and HULABU encamped on the east side, on the second day [of the week], on the thirteenth day of the first month, and he made war on the city with great fierceness—opposite the crown of the palace of the Khalifah. And the Khalifah MUSTA'SIM, the wretched man, in despair called his Wazir 'ALKAMI, and NAJM AD-DIN 'ABD AL-JANI, the son of DARNUS, and MAR MAKIKA, the Catholicus, and he commanded them to take gold in abundance, and royal possessions, and Arabian horses, and to fetch the ambassadors of the TATARS out of prison, and to array them in [fine] apparel, and to give them lavish gifts, and to go forth with them to the King of Kings. And they were to demand a pledge of safety for the lives of the Khalifah, [505] and his sons and his daughters, and to make an apology saying that the things which had happened had taken place through evil counsellors. Then, if he would be gracious, and would grant them their lives, they would become his slaves, and subjects who would pay tribute.

And when these men had gone forth to the King of Kings and fulfilled their embassy, HULABU detained them and would not let them return to the Khalifah. And he continued the war with still greater ferocity, and the TATARS made a great breach in the 'Ajami tower; and they entered the city on Friday, the twenty-fifth day of the first month, but the citizens prevailed over them, and drove them outside again. And the TATARS renewed their attack in full strength, and on the following day, that is to say the Sabbath, they became masters of all the walls. And the people of BAGHDAD fled and hid themselves in the houses and in the underground chambers (sardabs). And on the Sabbath day the two sons of the Khalifah went out to the King of Kings, and an hour later the Khalifah himself went forth [to him]. And the King of Kings commanded, and they cast iron fetters on him, and stood over him in a tent for seven days—until the King of Kings had gone in person to the palace of the Khalifah and had inspected the treasures, and the rich things, old and new, which were hidden away and laid up in stores; and he uncovered them all and had them brought out. And the MONGOLS drew their swords, and slew all the people of BAGHDAD—tens of thousands of men—the IBERIANS especially effected a great slaughter. And the Catholicus collected all the Christians into the church of the Third Bazar, and there he protected them, and none of the Christians was injured. And the wealthy ARABS brought out vast amounts of their riches to the Catholicus, that peradventure if they were able to save themselves they might retain their property, but all of them were killed.

And aftefwards when the wrath of the King of Kings had subsided somewhat, he had the wretched Khalifah brought before him, and he passed judgement on him and condemned him to death. And he commanded and they put him on a piece of sackcloth and then sewed it up round about him, and with kicks of their feet they killed him. [They did this] because certain of the ARABS had frightened the King of Kings saying, 'If the blood of this man be shed on the earth, no rain will ever again fall thereon, and also coals of fire will burst forth from it'. And in this wise the kingdom of the ABBASIDES came to an end. And also the other kingdoms of the ARABS [506] began to totter. And the kingdom of the MONGOLS stood and triumphed in the countries which are outside (i.e. foreign) as well as those which are within (i.e. native).

And the TATARS on their return from BAGHDAD came and encamped against the fortress of 'ARBIL. And when SAHIB BAR SALAYA wished to surrender to him, the large number of KURDS who dwelt therein threatened him with violence, and he fled from them to the TATARS. Then came BADR AD-DIN LULU and bought the fortress and everything which was in it from the TATARS for seventy thousand dinars. And the TATARS marched off, and BADR AD-DIN received the fortress of 'ARBIL and placed guards therein. And after a short time a certain Kurdish Amir whose name was SHARAF AD-DIN JALALI brought a Pukdana (i.e. a Decree = Patent), and took the fortress from BADR AD-DIN, and drove out his guards who were therein. And when that same JALALI, together with his TATAR troops, were going against the rebellious KURDS who were in JULMARG, BADR AD-DIN sent certain KURDS and they killed him whilst he was sleeping in his tent. And a certain Christian whose name was MOKHATAS, the brother of SAFI SULAIMAN, the great physician, became master of 'ARBIL. And after his death TAJ AD-DIN 'ISA, his son, rose up in his place, and he was a good, believing man. And in his time there was a very severe famine and a pestilence in all the land of SEN'AR, and 'ATHOR (ASSYRIA), and BETH NAHRIN, and SYRIA and BETH RHOMAYE; for in DAMASCUS a young dove for a sick man was sold for twelve nasraye

the Winnson shama knew
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05-01-2019, 08:06 AM
Post: #5
RE: The Mystery of the Mongols
The favored treatment of the Christians by the Mongols together with the coming Crusades of the Europeans pretty much sealed the fate of the Christians in the hands of their Muslim neighbors it seems. The Mongols hated Islam and the Muslims while some of the Tatar tribes that rode with the Mongol Horde were wholly or partially Christian. Others were Manichean and still others Buddhist. Genghis had even sent a Tatar Christian emissary to Rome to try to arrange to bring a two sided hammer down against the Muslims. It is noteworthy that the distinction between Mongolian and Turk hadn't yet been arrived at; all were considered Tatars then.

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05-01-2019, 08:29 AM
Post: #6
RE: The Mystery of the Mongols
The mongols banned the practice of circumcision in China as well
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05-01-2019, 08:40 AM
Post: #7
RE: The Mystery of the Mongols
(05-01-2019 08:06 AM)Skookum Charlie Wrote:  The favored treatment of the Christians by the Mongols together with the coming Crusades of the Europeans pretty much sealed the fate of the Christians in the hands of their Muslim neighbors it seems. The Mongols hated Islam and the Muslims while some of the Tatar tribes that rode with the Mongol Horde were wholly or partially Christian. Others were Manichean and still others Buddhist. Genghis had even sent a Tatar Christian emissary to Rome to try to arrange to bring a two sided hammer down against the Muslims. It is noteworthy that the distinction between Mongolian and Turk hadn't yet been arrived at; all were considered Tatars then.

It is not that simple to say they 'hated Islam'. Obviously they waged war against Iraq and Iran but in general the Mongol Empire was known for religious tolerance. Like in that story of Baghdad, the Caliph surrenders AFTER fighting back, which the Mongols rejected. They conquer the city, and then the people fight back. After that, they are all slaughtered. Very specific rules of engagement, which seem harsh and cruel to us, but everything I have read about the Mongols suggests everyone got the same offer, if you joined them, they would loot the city, sure, but not massacre everyone inside.

As for the 'Iberians':
[Image: 1200px-Georgian_States_Colchis_and_Iberi...en.svg.png]

Iberia in the Caucasus
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05-01-2019, 08:57 AM
Post: #8
RE: The Mystery of the Mongols
(05-01-2019 08:40 AM)Chaos Reigns Wrote:  
(05-01-2019 08:06 AM)Skookum Charlie Wrote:  The favored treatment of the Christians by the Mongols together with the coming Crusades of the Europeans pretty much sealed the fate of the Christians in the hands of their Muslim neighbors it seems. The Mongols hated Islam and the Muslims while some of the Tatar tribes that rode with the Mongol Horde were wholly or partially Christian. Others were Manichean and still others Buddhist. Genghis had even sent a Tatar Christian emissary to Rome to try to arrange to bring a two sided hammer down against the Muslims. It is noteworthy that the distinction between Mongolian and Turk hadn't yet been arrived at; all were considered Tatars then.

It is not that simple to say they 'hated Islam'. Obviously they waged war against Iraq and Iran but in general the Mongol Empire was known for religious tolerance. Like in that story of Baghdad, the Caliph surrenders AFTER fighting back, which the Mongols rejected. They conquer the city, and then the people fight back. After that, they are all slaughtered. Very specific rules of engagement, which seem harsh and cruel to us, but everything I have read about the Mongols suggests everyone got the same offer, if you joined them, they would loot the city, sure, but not massacre everyone inside.

As for the 'Iberians':
[Image: 1200px-Georgian_States_Colchis_and_Iberi...en.svg.png]

Iberia in the Caucasus

Yes, they were very tolerant of different religions I mentioned the multi religious character of the horde, except for Islam that is. I am not aware of Islam being tolerated in any of their Kingdoms and Ghengis had a notably enmity toward the Muslims.

Yes, I know the Iberians are the Georgians, Colchis the Abkhaz, Albania - Azerbaijan etc.

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05-01-2019, 08:57 AM
Post: #9
RE: The Mystery of the Mongols
Quote:Genghis Khan and the following Yuan Emperors forbade Islamic practices like Halal butchering, forcing Mongol methods of butchering animals on Muslims, and other restrictive degrees continued. Muslims had to slaughter sheep in secret.[11] Genghis Khan directly called Muslims and Jews "slaves", and demanded that they follow the Mongol method of eating rather than the halal method. Circumcision was also forbidden. Jews were also affected, and forbidden by the Mongols to eat Kosher.[12]

Among all the [subject] alien peoples only the Hui-hui say “we do not eat Mongol food”. [Cinggis Qa’an replied:] “By the aid of heaven we have pacified you; you are our slaves. Yet you do not eat our food or drink. How can this be right?” He thereupon made them eat. “If you slaughter sheep, you will be considered guilty of a crime.” He issued a regulation to that effect ... [In 1279/1280 under Qubilai] all the Muslims say: “if someone else slaughters [the animal] we do not eat”. Because the poor people are upset by this, from now on, Muscleman [Muslim] Huihui and Zhuhai [Jewish] Huihui, no matter who kills [the animal] will eat [it] and must cease slaughtering sheep themselves, and cease the rite of circumcision.
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05-01-2019, 01:31 PM
Post: #10
RE: The Mystery of the Mongols
@ChaosReigns sorry for the brevity of my response; I had around 90 seconds or so of free time at my disposal before I had to get my shoes anf jacket on and go meet a deadline. As far as Genghis Khan's military strategy, it's not really an interest of mine; you would know more about that than me. In fairness to Genghis khan and the Mongols, the Musselmen did not live cheerfully among their Buddhist, Christian, Manichean and Zoroastrian neighbors anywhere in the world at any time. Not in Central Asia, not in Western Asia/Anatolia, and certainly not in the Balkans or the Iberian peninsula. Not in late antiquity, and certainly not at the height of their civilization at the time of the Mongol conquest. Submission and payment of the jizya was required for peaceful cohabitation or there was conflict.

A couple of interesting notes re the map. Missing is a small Christian kingdom in the mountains of what is today Dagestan. This was the kingdom of the Avars, the largest ethnic group of modern Dagestan and one that has produced several of the toughest mma fighters from that region that we would be familiar with. Regarding Iberia and Albania, these are Latin names that were not used by the locals. The Caucasian Albanians called their country Aghvank. Interestingly there are still around 10,000 of these people left, they are known today as the Udi Christians and are currently being used as a propaganda tool/political football by the modern countries of Azerbaijan and Armenia in the dispute over Nagarno-Karabagh, an area that had been a center of Caucasian Albanian culture. Azeris and Armenians each assimilated millions of these people until they nearly disappeared with Russia doing irreparable harm when they handed over control of the Caucasian Albanian Orthodox Church over to the control of the Armenian Church after they conquered Azerbaijan. There have been some fascinating recent discoveries in monestaries in the Middle East regarding this people and their positive connection to the modern Udi that I can get into some other time in a proper dedicated thread if anyone else is interested.

As I mentioned earlier (and this is a fascinating case of what if) Genghis Khan did send two eminent high ranking Tatar members of the Church of the East on an imperial mission to tour Europe and eventually to the Vatican to try to make an alliance with Rome against the Muslims.

THE TRAVELS OF THE NESTORIAN CHINESE MONKS, RABBAN SAWMA AND MARKOS

The monks Sawma and Markos (Mark) set out from China with the intention of visiting Jerusalem and the holy places, especially the Tomb of our Lord, so that they might obtain forgiveness of their sins and full and complete absolution. They travelled together as far as Baghdad, but there Providence interfered with their plans, Mark became Patriarch of the East, and was obliged to abandon his journey to Jerusalem, and Rabban Sawma was appointed to a very high office in the Nestorian Church, namely, that of Visitor-General, and was subsequently sent on a mission, partly ecclesiastical and partly political, to Byzantium, Italy, and France. We may now briefly summarize: z. The account of the joint travels of the two monks; 2. Rabban Sawma's account of his journey to Europe; 3. The History of the Patriarchate of Mark, who was called Yahbh-Allaha (III).

I.--THE TRAVELS OF SAWMA AND MARK

Sawma, later called Rabban Sawma, was the son of a well-to-do Nestorian called Shiban by his wife Keyamta, who held the office of Visitor in the community, and lived in the great city of Khan Balig or Khan Bahk, (i.e. City of the Khan) in China,. Khan Balik is no other than the great city of Pekin or Peking, and is called Cambaluc by Marco Polo, who, describes its history and plan of it as it was in 12go when he visited it. (See The Book of Sey Marco Polo the Venetian, vol. i, London, 1875, p. 364 f.) Shiban and Keyamta remained childless for a long time, but at length a son was born to them and they called him "Sawma," i.e. the Fast, for he was probably born during Lent. The child was carefully educated_ and studied ecclesiastical literature at an early age, and when he arrived at the age of puberty, his parents betrothed him to a maiden, and his father caused him to be made kankaya, i.e. ostiarius or keeper of the great church of Pekin. At the age of twenty he, to the great grief of his parents, refused to marry the maiden to whom he was betrothed, and renounced the world and all in it. In response to their prayers and entreaties Sawma dwelt with his parents for three years, but finding their manner of life intolerable, he distributed all his goods among the poor and adopted the garb of the monk; he received the tonsure from Mar George, Metropolitan of Pekin. At length he left Pekin, and after journeying for one day he found a cave in the mountain side and a spring of water, and he settled down there and lived a life of stern asceticism. His fame spread abroad and men came from all parts to hear his discourses.

In the first half of the XIIIth century there lived in the city of Kawshang in Kh6rasan a Nestorian called Bayniel, who filled the office of archdeacon in that city. He had four sons, and the youngest of them; who was born in 1245 and was called Mark, decided to become a monk, and went to the place where Sawma was, a distance- of fifteen days' journey, to ask him to help him to become one. Sawma tried to persuade him 'to return to his parents, but Mark refused to do so, and three years later he was endued with the garb of the monk and received the tonsure at the hands of Mar Nestorius, the Metropolitan.


Rabban Marcos after an impressive career as academic, church scholar and diplomat would eventually go on to come known as Mar Yahbh Allaha 111 would go on to become the head of the Church of the East, at the time the largest Christian Church in the world, based in Iraq and extending east through Central Asia and India to China itself. Markos is to this day the only Chinese to ever hold such a distinction. Clearly the Nestorian Syriac fathers saw the Orient as being on the rise at this time.

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05-05-2019, 05:07 AM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2019 05:10 AM by Chaos Reigns.)
Post: #11
RE: The Mystery of the Mongols
[Image: Nestorian-Stele-Budge-plate-X.jpg]

"Buried in 845, probably during religious suppression, the stele was not rediscovered until 1625. "
Let me just say I... Uh... Am skeptical about this kind of thing.

"Early Jesuits attempted to claim that the stele was erected by a historical community of Roman Catholics in China, called Nestorianism a heresy, and claimed that it was Catholics who first brought Christianity to China. But later historians and writers admitted that it was indeed from the Church of the East and not Roman Catholic"

But the word China does appear very similar to a cross, of some sort.

[Image: R1a.jpg]

This R1A map I post, because men in Russia apparently don't have much Mongol Y-dna (and vice versa). But R1A is very widespread, across Eurasia.

Well, whether there is a Mongol link there is up for debate. My point was more regarding how the lines are drawn. Between the south Caucasus and the north Caucasus are the Caucasus mountains. Formidable, to be sure.

[Image: dsc07510.jpg?resize=980%2C400&ssl=1]

But not only is there fairly easy access through Derbent (although gated for the last few hundred years).

[Image: Derbent_winter.jpg]

There are also the Black Sea and Caspian Sea, to either side! These were the equivalent of medieval highways!
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05-16-2019, 01:37 PM
Post: #12
RE: The Mystery of the Mongols




Follow up video, specifically talking about the Golden Horde, and 'Mongol yoke in Russia'.
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