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J.Dempsey Appears to be Oriental?
02-15-2019, 02:58 AM
Post: #31
RE: J.Dempsey Appears to be Oriental?
After finding out about the Liston vs Ali fights being fixed, nothing would surprise me.

Allegations about Mayweather/McGregor being a work too. Would explain why Mayweather did nothing in the early rounds, and then when he started boxing for real, it was done within what, 3 rounds?
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02-15-2019, 08:40 AM
Post: #32
RE: J.Dempsey Appears to be Oriental?
(02-14-2019 06:44 PM)Redneck Wrote:  
Quote:GLOVES LOADED? DEMPSEY SAYS NO; Willard Supports Charges Made by Kearns


Jack Dempsey was charged yesterday with having used loaded gloves in 1919 when he won the heavyweight boxing title from Jess Willard. The accusation was made in the memoirs of the late Jack (Doc) Kearns, in a copyrighted feature in Sports Illustrated magazine. Dempsey denied the charge in the same article.


Kearns, who was Dempsey's manager, said he used plaster of paris and water in bandaging Dempsey's hands to insure a 10‐1 bet of $10,000 that Dempsey would win in one round. Dempsey won in three rounds.

Kearns said the fighter was “entirely innocent of what happened.”

“Afterward, when I cracked off the bandages and ditched them,” Kearns said, “he was so dumb at being the heavyweight champion of the world that you could have hit him with a hammer and he wouldn't have blinked an eye.”

Dempsey Is Quoted


Dempsey Is Quoted

The article quoted Dempsey as having commented, “RidicuIous! I could take an oath. In fact I will.”

Willard, now 82 years old, told Sports Illustrated:

“I'm glad that Kearns finally was man enough to admit it. . . . First time Dempsey hit me, I knew the gloves were loaded.”

Willard added:

“He cut me all to pieces and hammered my eyes closed—that's why they gave the title to him.”

Asked why Kearns might make such a charge, Dempsey replied, “That's the kind of a guy he was.”

Willard said:

“I've been trying for almost 45 years to get the story printed but nobody would believe me. They thought it was just a loser complaining. I'm glad Kearns has finally admitted it. My jaw is still caved in from the beating that fellow gave me with cement on his hands.”

‘Had to Hide a Smile'

In the article, Kearns said, “I had to hide a smile as the call came to enter the ring. Every punch, landing with the hollow sound of a mallet crunching into a watermelon, raised knots on him [Willard] or tore him open.”

Willard said:

“I had never been knocked down before, but he knocked me down four or five times in the first round. But I fooled them. I kept getting up.

“Dempsey left the ring—I guess to go take off the cement. They had to go get him and bring him back so they could officially give him the title. He never did knock me out—they gave him the title because my eyes were hammered closed.”

In the magazine, Kearns said:

“There may be those who will wonder how it could possibly be that Dempsey didn't know his gloves were loaded.

“Actually it isn't too surprising. He was young and this was the most unnerving day of his hungry life. Until the bell rang he was like a man who had been hypnotized.”

[Image: 106931702_360W.png]


https://www.nytimes.com/1964/01/09/archi...de-by.html



I believe there was some animosity after Dempsey/Kearns had their falling out.....and yet in late years when Kearns was destitute after his legal suits against Dempsey it was a compassionate Dempsey which made some financial contribution to Kearns.

Kearns was a Top Notch Professional Hustler and so it would not surprise me if he could do some tricks without Dempsey knowing. Still, it was Dempsey which managed his affairs better in the end so maybe he wasn't so dumb as Kearns implications.

As for the BIG BETS thats how those fellows lived and they did not always seem to follow the philosophy of Risk Management
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02-15-2019, 08:45 AM
Post: #33
RE: J.Dempsey Appears to be Oriental?
Professor Redneck you seem to have a good knowledge of boxing and so I would enjoy to hear your thoughts of comparison between the fighters of 80s/90s and those of Dempsey's generation
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02-15-2019, 08:50 AM
Post: #34
RE: J.Dempsey Appears to be Oriental?
the big question is always how would have a prime Ali done against a prime Tyson.?
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02-15-2019, 02:32 PM
Post: #35
RE: J.Dempsey Appears to be Oriental?
(02-15-2019 08:50 AM)trevorrice Wrote:  the big question is always how would have a prime Ali done against a prime Tyson.?


I would wish to see if Tyson could first get through Frazier/Foreman and then he could have his shot at the king!
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02-15-2019, 02:41 PM
Post: #36
RE: J.Dempsey Appears to be Oriental?
I doubt he would get past foreman
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02-15-2019, 04:37 PM
Post: #37
RE: J.Dempsey Appears to be Oriental?
(02-15-2019 08:50 AM)trevorrice Wrote:  the big question is always how would have a prime Ali done against a prime Tyson.?

I think Tyson schools Ali. But he would have struggled against other greats, like he did against Lewis and Holyfield.

Once you realize Ali's 'classic wins' over Liston were works, it takes a LOT of shine off him. Who knows if some of his other wins were works too. Haven't really looked. He probably did win Rumble in the Jungle legit, through Rope-a-dope, but how come other fighters haven't used that strategy more? Probably because if you don't get the knock out, you lose. Or if the opponent fights smart, you lose.

But Tyson's trainer, Teddy Atlas (after D'Amato died) was really critical of his mental toughness. Said that every 'real fight' he was in, he lost. Because of being mentally weak.
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02-27-2019, 06:41 PM
Post: #38
RE: J.Dempsey Appears to be Oriental?
(02-15-2019 08:45 AM)karasu Wrote:  Professor Redneck you seem to have a good knowledge of boxing and so I would enjoy to hear your thoughts of comparison between the fighters of 80s/90s and those of Dempsey's generation


I have been postponing my response to this as it is a rather involved subject.

If I were a contestant on Jeopardy I'd request the topic Heavyweight Boxers from 1900-1995, as I have done extensive study of this period in the sport. But that doesn't make me an expert, just a fan who tried to learn as much as he could.

Firstly, I do not believe that the Ali-Liston fights were works. A work usually suggests that both fighters have agreed to a fight ending in a certain way. I do not believe that Ali had any knowledge of any fixes or works at all, in either fight.

The first fight was not a work by any stretch of the imagination. They fought for real and then in round 5 Liston's corner put rubbing linement on his gloves and he blinded Ali. Ali fought blind through round 5 and 6 until his eyes cleared enough to see again. If the fight had been a work that Ali was supposed to win then it makes no sense for Liston to cheat and try and gain the upper hand.

In the rematch, there was a lot of hate for Ali for converting to Islam and he had received many death threats. Liston was in fear of being shot in the middle of an assassination attempt on Ali, and when he was hit by Ali, with a legitimate punch, he goes down and stays there. You can see Ali screaming at him to get up. Ali had no part of it.


Ali was a true champion who somehow always managed to rise to the opponent and defeat them, he fought some of the very best HW boxers in the history of the sport, it was only in his later years, especially his last two fights when he was suffering from Parkinson's, that he started to show signs of weakness.

I will follow this post up with another, covering the other greats of this era.

I'm just trying to figure this shit out like you are.
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02-28-2019, 03:25 AM
Post: #39
RE: J.Dempsey Appears to be Oriental?
" A work usually suggests that both fighters have agreed to a fight ending in a certain way. I do not believe that Ali had any knowledge of any fixes or works at all, in either fight."

We both know that is nonsense. Both fighters do not have to be involved, you can win a worked fight without foreknowledge, definitely.

What you have to work is the OUTCOME and it is sufficient to have control of one fighter to control that.

Did Liston ever quit on his stool, before or after that fight? Why doesn't he throw hardly any right hooks in the fight, considering it is his bread and butter? If it is because his shoulder is injured going in, isn't that enough to postpone the fight? Or at least for the history books to show that Ali beat a one-armed Liston?

The blinding is interesting, no doubt. The one theory was that Ali's own cutman might have put something in the Vaseline, wasn't it? So that could mean neither Ali OR Liston knows anything about that, a 3rd party tries to interfere, maybe they placed a large bet on Liston winning by knockout in the 5th round.

If Liston has been intimidated (by fear of an 'assassination attempt', in other words "We might shoot you by accident, chump") isn't that clear proof of a fix?

Again, I am only disagreeing that both fighters need to be in on it. Seems pretty clear to me that only Liston had to be bribed and intimidated into throwing both fights. The first one, the instructions were probably something like "Make it a good fight, before going out on your stool" and in the second, "Make it decisive, or else".
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03-01-2019, 06:23 AM
Post: #40
RE: J.Dempsey Appears to be Oriental?
(02-27-2019 06:41 PM)Redneck Wrote:  
(02-15-2019 08:45 AM)karasu Wrote:  Professor Redneck you seem to have a good knowledge of boxing and so I would enjoy to hear your thoughts of comparison between the fighters of 80s/90s and those of Dempsey's generation


I have been postponing my response to this as it is a rather involved subject.

If I were a contestant on Jeopardy I'd request the topic Heavyweight Boxers from 1900-1995, as I have done extensive study of this period in the sport. But that doesn't make me an expert, just a fan who tried to learn as much as he could.

Firstly, I do not believe that the Ali-Liston fights were works. A work usually suggests that both fighters have agreed to a fight ending in a certain way. I do not believe that Ali had any knowledge of any fixes or works at all, in either fight.

The first fight was not a work by any stretch of the imagination. They fought for real and then in round 5 Liston's corner put rubbing linement on his gloves and he blinded Ali. Ali fought blind through round 5 and 6 until his eyes cleared enough to see again. If the fight had been a work that Ali was supposed to win then it makes no sense for Liston to cheat and try and gain the upper hand.

In the rematch, there was a lot of hate for Ali for converting to Islam and he had received many death threats. Liston was in fear of being shot in the middle of an assassination attempt on Ali, and when he was hit by Ali, with a legitimate punch, he goes down and stays there. You can see Ali screaming at him to get up. Ali had no part of it.


Ali was a true champion who somehow always managed to rise to the opponent and defeat them, he fought some of the very best HW boxers in the history of the sport, it was only in his later years, especially his last two fights when he was suffering from Parkinson's, that he started to show signs of weakness.

I will follow this post up with another, covering the other greats of this era.



I will look forward to reading more of your Pugilistic Commentaries Professor Redneck!
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03-02-2019, 05:59 AM
Post: #41
RE: J.Dempsey Appears to be Oriental?
thread has evolved see NEW THREAD "The Rough&Tumble Thread of Pugilism and Fisticuffs" for continued discussion
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03-03-2019, 10:34 AM
Post: #42
RE: J.Dempsey Appears to be Oriental?
One day we will have an Asian heavyweight boxing champion???!!!

His name will be...
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Sugar Ray Kwai Chang???!!!
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