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Poll: Did NASA land men on the Moon, in the late 60s, early 70s?
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July 21, 1969: Man walks on the Moon for the 1st time?
10-13-2020, 08:48 PM
Post: #826
RE: July 21, 1969: Man walks on the Moon for the 1st time?


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10-13-2020, 11:37 PM
Post: #827
RE: July 21, 1969: Man walks on the Moon for the 1st time?
(10-13-2020 02:43 AM)Chaos Reigns Wrote:  The Soviet design had redundancy built in. NASA... Not so much. Wonder why they weren't worried about the Lunar Ascent engine failing to fire its hypergolic engine? The engines themselves were ONE USE so they could even be tested before being installed in the module!

the soviet landers did not have redundant engines.

the US lunar lander ascent engine had been tested 3 times in outer space. Apollo 5, 9, and 10

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10-14-2020, 02:40 AM
Post: #828
RE: July 21, 1969: Man walks on the Moon for the 1st time?
(10-13-2020 11:37 PM)KurtDangle Wrote:  the soviet landers did not have redundant engines.

the US lunar lander ascent engine had been tested 3 times in outer space. Apollo 5, 9, and 10

Don't assert it, prove it.

I think you are confusing the DESCENT engine and the ascent engine.

The ascent engine was non-gimballed and unthrottle-able! LOL

Good luck with your little space rendezvous.
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10-14-2020, 07:41 AM
Post: #829
RE: July 21, 1969: Man walks on the Moon for the 1st time?
(10-14-2020 02:40 AM)Chaos Reigns Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 11:37 PM)KurtDangle Wrote:  the soviet landers did not have redundant engines.

the US lunar lander ascent engine had been tested 3 times in outer space. Apollo 5, 9, and 10

Don't assert it, prove it.

I think you are confusing the DESCENT engine and the ascent engine.

The ascent engine was non-gimballed and unthrottle-able! LOL

Good luck with your little space rendezvous.

The Apollo 5 mission tested the lunar module in a space environment, in particular its descent and ascent engine systems, and its ability to separate the ascent and descent stages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_5


The mission was flown to qualify the LM for lunar orbit operations in preparation for the first Moon landing by demonstrating its descent and ascent propulsion systems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_9


It (Apollo 10) was the F mission: a "dress rehearsal" for the first Moon landing, testing all the components and procedures just short of actually landing.

The ascent stage was loaded with the amount of fuel and oxidizer it would have had remaining if it had lifted off from the surface and reached the altitude at which the Apollo 10 ascent stage fired
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_10

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10-14-2020, 10:15 AM
Post: #830
RE: July 21, 1969: Man walks on the Moon for the 1st time?
(10-14-2020 07:41 AM)KurtDangle Wrote:  The Apollo 5 mission tested the lunar module in a space environment, in particular its descent and ascent engine systems, and its ability to separate the ascent and descent stages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_5


The mission was flown to qualify the LM for lunar orbit operations in preparation for the first Moon landing by demonstrating its descent and ascent propulsion systems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_9


It (Apollo 10) was the F mission: a "dress rehearsal" for the first Moon landing, testing all the components and procedures just short of actually landing.

The ascent stage was loaded with the amount of fuel and oxidizer it would have had remaining if it had lifted off from the surface and reached the altitude at which the Apollo 10 ascent stage fired
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_10

What I like about you, which isn't much, is your confidence in being right, even when you haven't even read the links you posted.

Apollo 5:
[Image: Lm1_ground.jpg]

The only details that wiki link gives is that "they then performed the "fire in the hole" test and another ascent-engine burn.". Wow, that is some thorough testing of the ascent engine, in Apollo 5!

Lets go to Apollo 9:
"After McDivitt and Schweickart returned to Gumdrop, Spider was jettisoned, its engine fired to fuel depletion remotely by Mission Control as part of further testing of the engine,[2][58] simulating an ascent stage's climb from the lunar surface. "

So Apollo 5, unmanned. Apollo 9, the ascent engine is fired after it has been jettisoned. OK! I'll allow it, I suppose.

Apollo 10: "During descent stage separation, the lunar module began to roll unexpectedly because the crew accidentally duplicated commands into the flight computer which took the LM out of abort mode, the correct configuration for this maneuver.[20] The live network broadcasts caught Cernan and Stafford uttering several expletives before regaining control of the LM. Decades later, Cernan said he observed the horizon spinning eight times over, indicating eight rolls of the spacecraft under ascent engine power. Recordings from the flight do not support this dramatic memory.[21] While the incident was downplayed by NASA, the roll was just several revolutions from being unrecoverable, which would have resulted in the LM crashing into the lunar surface.[20]

After Stafford and Cernan docked with and re-entered Charlie Brown, Snoopy's engine was fired to fuel depletion to send the ascent stage on a trajectory past the Moon and into a heliocentric orbit"

Hmm.... Ummm... Yeah. Not what I would call thorough testing of the ascent engine, whatsoever! Hell, from the looks of it, it was scarcely tested at all. And while manned, even less so.

But really, my question was about your assertion that the Soviets DID NOT have built in redundancy designed, for THEIR lunar lander.
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10-14-2020, 12:16 PM
Post: #831
RE: July 21, 1969: Man walks on the Moon for the 1st time?
they didn't do an unmanned test on the lunar surface prior

this is unprecedented

they can't even do something like the LM today
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10-14-2020, 02:18 PM
Post: #832
RE: July 21, 1969: Man walks on the Moon for the 1st time?
(10-14-2020 12:16 PM)pug-thug Wrote:  they didn't do an unmanned test on the lunar surface prior

this is unprecedented

they can't even do something like the LM today

Think about the lunar rendezvous.

You are taking off from the Moon's surface, to rendezvous with an orbiting craft, travelling at what, a few hundred miles per hour?

[Image: Apollo_11_lunar_module.jpg]

It is orbiting for some time. So you can't just take off whenever you want and have a preset flight path from the Moon's surface.

Then you take into account you are using a non-gimballed engine, meaning it only points straight down. And it is max thrust or no thrust. And you don't know if it will start back up if you shut it off and try turn it back on. You have RCS that can do a bit of the maneuvering, but if that runs out, then what? You might end up in a trajectory like a catapult, or off into space.

The point is, the amount of fuel puts huge constraints on how much margin you have for error. Almost none.

Your computer is practically useless, your engine is 0-100, you have limited RCS/maneuver. You could have the Command Module fine tune its orbit, to make the rendezvous easier, but then you risk not having enough fuel to get back to Earth, or you get back to Earth but too 'hot', too much velocity...

There is a reason Japan, China, Russia, Europe, India AND NASA have not tried something like this in recent memory!

And 'it is expensive' ain't it! It is at the moment technologically possible! Not that the tech can't be developed, but that it doesn't exist right now!
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10-14-2020, 02:55 PM
Post: #833
RE: July 21, 1969: Man walks on the Moon for the 1st time?
yeah I talked about the difficulty of that years ago

I'm at the point now where you just kinda know it's BS

they are not even CLOSE to doing any of this today.
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10-14-2020, 03:15 PM (This post was last modified: 10-14-2020 03:22 PM by KurtDangle.)
Post: #834
RE: July 21, 1969: Man walks on the Moon for the 1st time?
(10-14-2020 10:15 AM)Chaos Reigns Wrote:  
(10-14-2020 07:41 AM)KurtDangle Wrote:  The Apollo 5 mission tested the lunar module in a space environment, in particular its descent and ascent engine systems, and its ability to separate the ascent and descent stages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_5


The mission was flown to qualify the LM for lunar orbit operations in preparation for the first Moon landing by demonstrating its descent and ascent propulsion systems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_9


It (Apollo 10) was the F mission: a "dress rehearsal" for the first Moon landing, testing all the components and procedures just short of actually landing.

The ascent stage was loaded with the amount of fuel and oxidizer it would have had remaining if it had lifted off from the surface and reached the altitude at which the Apollo 10 ascent stage fired
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_10

What I like about you, which isn't much, is your confidence in being right, even when you haven't even read the links you posted.

Apollo 5:

The only details that wiki link gives is that "they then performed the "fire in the hole" test and another ascent-engine burn.". Wow, that is some thorough testing of the ascent engine, in Apollo 5!

Lets go to Apollo 9:
"After McDivitt and Schweickart returned to Gumdrop, Spider was jettisoned, its engine fired to fuel depletion remotely by Mission Control as part of further testing of the engine,[2][58] simulating an ascent stage's climb from the lunar surface. "

So Apollo 5, unmanned. Apollo 9, the ascent engine is fired after it has been jettisoned. OK! I'll allow it, I suppose.

Apollo 10: "During descent stage separation, the lunar module began to roll unexpectedly because the crew accidentally duplicated commands into the flight computer which took the LM out of abort mode, the correct configuration for this maneuver.[20] The live network broadcasts caught Cernan and Stafford uttering several expletives before regaining control of the LM. Decades later, Cernan said he observed the horizon spinning eight times over, indicating eight rolls of the spacecraft under ascent engine power. Recordings from the flight do not support this dramatic memory.[21] While the incident was downplayed by NASA, the roll was just several revolutions from being unrecoverable, which would have resulted in the LM crashing into the lunar surface.[20]

After Stafford and Cernan docked with and re-entered Charlie Brown, Snoopy's engine was fired to fuel depletion to send the ascent stage on a trajectory past the Moon and into a heliocentric orbit"

Hmm.... Ummm... Yeah. Not what I would call thorough testing of the ascent engine, whatsoever! Hell, from the looks of it, it was scarcely tested at all. And while manned, even less so.

But really, my question was about your assertion that the Soviets DID NOT have built in redundancy designed, for THEIR lunar lander.

you said the ascent engine was never tested. oops, i proved you wrong no mater how you nit pick the 3 tests

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10-14-2020, 03:21 PM
Post: #835
RE: July 21, 1969: Man walks on the Moon for the 1st time?
(10-14-2020 12:16 PM)pug-thug Wrote:  they didn't do an unmanned test on the lunar surface prior

this is unprecedented

they can't even do something like the LM today

i guess you never heard of the surveyor program, 1966 to 1968. the US successfully landed 5 unmanned landers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveyor_program

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10-14-2020, 03:27 PM
Post: #836
RE: July 21, 1969: Man walks on the Moon for the 1st time?
the US began docking spacecraft in 1966

the soviets succeeded in 1967
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10-14-2020, 04:41 PM
Post: #837
RE: July 21, 1969: Man walks on the Moon for the 1st time?
(10-14-2020 03:15 PM)KurtDangle Wrote:  you said the ascent engine was never tested. oops, i proved you wrong no mater how you nit pick the 3 tests

I did? Oof. It is a shame I don't remember saying that. I am pretty sure I asked about the redundancy in the ascent stage of the Soviet lunar lander design.

Must be a Mandela effect.

"3 tests" Haha! Good one.
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10-14-2020, 04:42 PM
Post: #838
RE: July 21, 1969: Man walks on the Moon for the 1st time?
(10-14-2020 03:21 PM)KurtDangle Wrote:  
(10-14-2020 12:16 PM)pug-thug Wrote:  they didn't do an unmanned test on the lunar surface prior

this is unprecedented

they can't even do something like the LM today

i guess you never heard of the surveyor program, 1966 to 1968. the US successfully landed 5 unmanned landers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveyor_program

He's talking about lunar orbit rendezvous with the LUNAR LANDER, unmanned. Happy to clear up any confusion there.
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10-14-2020, 09:09 PM
Post: #839
RE: July 21, 1969: Man walks on the Moon for the 1st time?
(10-14-2020 04:41 PM)Chaos Reigns Wrote:  I asked about the redundancy in the ascent stage of the Soviet lunar lander design.

that is not what you asked.

mandella effect

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10-15-2020, 02:47 AM
Post: #840
RE: July 21, 1969: Man walks on the Moon for the 1st time?
(10-13-2020 02:43 AM)Chaos Reigns Wrote:  The Soviet design had redundancy built in. NASA... Not so much. Wonder why they weren't worried about the Lunar Ascent engine failing to fire its hypergolic engine? The engines themselves were ONE USE so they could even be tested before being installed in the module!

Holy s*** Mandela effect is now editing old posts, and they don't even say 'edited' next to them!

And clearly I say the specific UNIT that gets placed into the lunar lander could not be tested before it was installed! Something you did not address. The DESIGN was tested. Were the units? Maybe the importance of this is going over your head.

But this is why REDUNDANCY is important.
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