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Why have Martial Arts been so important in East Asian societies in particular?
01-17-2018, 11:24 AM
Post: #16
RE: Why have Martial Arts been so important in East Asian societies in particular?
(01-16-2018 02:02 PM)Rako Wrote:  What might you have in mind for martial arts in Europe?

German Monastery Manual on Sword & Buckler
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German Manual on Two-Handed Longsword
[Image: Meyer_1570_Longsword_G.jpg]

Italian Manual on 1.5 Handed Bastard Swords, Daggers and odd-ball weapons
[Image: 1405722236655]
[Image: e478153e0526cd95415b3d6ae7b3da0d.jpg]
[Image: 40881_orig.jpg]
[Image: Ms.Thott.290.2%C2%BA_083v.jpg]

Italian Manuals on Rapier Fencing
[Image: Capo_ferro_plate_7.jpg]
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01-17-2018, 11:24 AM
Post: #17
RE: Why have Martial Arts been so important in East Asian societies in particular?
Irish Jacket and Collar Wrestling
[Image: 220px-Collarelbow.jpg]
[Image: td1.jpg]

Scottish Backhold Wrestling
[Image: backhold.png]

Nordic Glima
[Image: glima.jpg?resize=226%2C340]

Early Boxing
[Image: Cribb_vs_Molineaux_1811_2.jpg]

American Catch Wrestling
[Image: 4e100b9faa27b73d6faf937d0d046b76--catch-...sports.jpg]
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01-17-2018, 11:26 AM (This post was last modified: 01-17-2018 11:27 AM by kungfool.)
Post: #18
RE: Why have Martial Arts been so important in East Asian societies in particular?
^ All of this stuff is in the realm of Historical Reconstruction though. The chain of Priesthood is broken; they're dead traditions. Trying to practice them today is like being a battlefield actor, a Pagan or a D&D LARPER.

Stick to Karate, Muay Thai, Boxing, Judo etc. Even Krav Maga is a better life-choice.
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01-17-2018, 11:57 AM
Post: #19
RE: Why have Martial Arts been so important in East Asian societies in particular?
(01-17-2018 11:26 AM)kungfool Wrote:  ^ All of this stuff is in the realm of Historical Reconstruction though. The chain of Priesthood is broken; they're dead traditions. Trying to practice them today is like being a battlefield actor, a Pagan or a D&D LARPER.

I know what you mean about dead traditions. A good example I find where this kind of problem came up for me is in proving my theory of monotheism in ancient Egyptian religion. There are inscriptions that talk about major gods being ultimately one God, and the Egyptologist E. Budge found places where they sound as if they are using the Egyptian word for God (Netjer) as if God is a single being, and not just one of many gods. Yet there are Egyptologists today who dispute this thesis of ancient Egyptian monotheism. They argue that when the inscriptions speak of "God" (Netjer), the writers just had in mind some particular deity out of many, and not the concept of one supreme ultimate God. With the "chain of priesthood" being broken and Egyptian religion having died out a long time ago, one cannot simply introduce a living Egyptian pagan priest to the Egyptologists to answer their questions and rebut their mistaken theories.

But let me give you an example of ancient traditions that remain "living" and yet the problem remains- the question of whether Isaiah 53 and other places in the Bible refer to the killing of the Messiah. The Talmud is a book of oral traditions and applies Isaiah 53 to the Messiah's suffering, but a few other places it seems to draw lessons from Isaiah 53 and apply them to other people. And even in that case, we don't have clear examples from the Targum and Talmud saying that the Messiah would get killed, as far as I remember. Yet Isaiah 53 does say that the figure in question would get killed, so if that's the Messiah, then the original writer, Isaiah, must have meant it that way. So despite there being a living oral tradition about the scriptures being passed down in a chain in Judaism, we don't have a clear enough answer that will convince skeptics. We don't have Isaiah here to directly answer their questions and to tell them that he himself had this intention.
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01-17-2018, 01:43 PM
Post: #20
RE: Why have Martial Arts been so important in East Asian societies in particular?
I think it's good to take inspiration from the dead traditions, but it has to be synthesized with something living, and ultimately transform to have authenticity.

For example, a lot of America-First types really like grappling arts, but don't want to practice a sport called "Brazilian Jiujitsu".
[Image: Flag-Pins-Brazil-Japan.jpg]

I think it's totally natural; they don't want to practice a sport dominated by Brazilians, where you're expected to feign interest in Portugese, eat Acai Berry smoothies, and often put up with shady 3rd World Business practices just to find an 'authentic' instructor.

So they go for the closest American equivalent Catch Wrestling. The problem is Catch Wrestling died sometime around the 1940's, then came back as hokey Pro. Wrestling. So there is a break in the chain. As such, all of the people who claim to be legit, are either obvious Bullshit Artists, 80+ years old, or are mysteriously too 'injured' to ever spar. The students don't get to face aggressive competition, and ultimately just have to have blind faith in their instructor, and cling to a fleeting sense of national heritage.
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01-17-2018, 02:48 PM
Post: #21
RE: Why have Martial Arts been so important in East Asian societies in particular?
do you think that Barnett and Erick Paulson are legit catch wrestlers or bullshitting?
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01-17-2018, 05:53 PM
Post: #22
RE: Why have Martial Arts been so important in East Asian societies in particular?
(01-17-2018 02:48 PM)CTsar Wrote:  do you think that Barnett and Erick Paulson are legit catch wrestlers or bullshitting?

Good question. I thought about that in the earlier post.

There was legit transference of Catch skills to Japan, but I think that was watered down by Pancrase days. Paulson did a bunch of TMA, then got into JKD / Dan Inosanto, then studied BJJ, THEN hung out with a Japanese Shooto guy who taught him the neck cranks and toe-holds.

I think that is exactly what I imagine when I say synthesizing the dead with the living. There was no Catch Wrestling tradition for Paulson to follow, there was no 'Snake Pit' gym for him to join; he took the tools and competitive training environment of BJJ, but then drew inspiration and philosophy from elsewhere.

I've never been to his CSW gym, but some of my training partners have. Basically, they train BJJ style; the 'bottom' guy starts in Closed Guard, not a Turtle like you would have found Wrestlers doing 60 years ago. They practice Japanese invented moves like Armbars and Triangles, but they hold nothing back with Neck Cranks, and you won't get shouted at for going for a Leg-Lock, or looked at as a brute for for doing 'Pain Moves' like Knee or Bicep compressions.

I think Erik Paulson's Gym has earned the right to to put --BJJ-Catch--Sambo--Freestyle-- on their banner, but I like the name they chose; Combat Submission Wrestling.

The problem is they don't really have a curriculum that can be recreated elsewhere; it's kind of just 1 guy and his house; when it dies, will there be a successor?
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01-17-2018, 06:02 PM (This post was last modified: 01-17-2018 06:43 PM by kungfool.)
Post: #23
RE: Why have Martial Arts been so important in East Asian societies in particular?
For contrast, here is what you get when a bullshit artist tries ties himself to a forgotten legacy.



[/video]

FYI I was way into this as a teenager and watched his entire DVD set before I stepped into a BJJ gym.
I knew some of it was hokey, and that he was making up moves, but the more I dug, I saw he made up excuses about back problems and wouldn't roll on-camera or compete, and all of his students were out-of-shape, looked like garbage, and trained in baggy t-shirts and jeans. It was clear that no real 'training' was happening, just a 'guru' running seminars for his blind followers.
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01-17-2018, 06:11 PM
Post: #24
RE: Why have Martial Arts been so important in East Asian societies in particular?
There were worse fakers like that guy Matt Fury. If you guys were around the Internet in the early 2000's you probably remember his banner ads.

[Image: G%202002-05%20Cov.jpg]

He'd sell you a calisthenics program, but market it using some old Catch Wrestling fliers and promises of Invincibility and near Godhood.

[Image: farmer.jpg]

Jake Shannon of Scientific Wrestling is also very sketchy. They all call each-other frauds and they probably all are to some extent.


I guess my point is, don't trust anyone who tries to sell you the lost arts as a complete system.
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01-18-2018, 04:09 AM
Post: #25
RE: Why have Martial Arts been so important in East Asian societies in particular?
european MA has always been more about equipment (bulky steel suits) and brute force

also european MA is less art as i think traditionally they did not believe in CHI or inner spirit.

less focus on tradition, spirituality and history is probably why juicing is such a big problem in western MMA.

no japanese has EVER BEEN CAUGHT ROIDING in MMA HISTORY

in fact in all of sports they have rarely if ever been caught roiding.

a true spiritual athlete would not roid.
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01-18-2018, 04:42 AM
Post: #26
RE: Why have Martial Arts been so important in East Asian societies in particular?
(01-18-2018 04:09 AM)EVILYOSHIDA Wrote:  no japanese has EVER BEEN CAUGHT ROIDING in MMA HISTORY

You find in Judo, the Japanese heroes would rather lose honorably, by putting all of their spirit into a throw but failing, than getting a shameful victory. It's more than just lip-service to honor too.

It's the Europeans especially, that have no problem stalling for 4 minutes, not risking a single attack, then winning on a 2 point advantage. The most shameful part is the way they jump up and celebrate the victory. Like they just achieved something heroic when they actually made the crowd suffer and spoiled the mood.

Wrestlers do this in ADCC/BJJ too. They come in totally jacked, 3/4 naked, slippery, then prevent any action from happening for 10 minutes, then celebrate the victory like they're the hero. Except, they turn fans away, not bring them in. No one wants to go to their seminars or buy their DVDs.

In both cases, it's like they kill the sport a little bit for their own glory.
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01-18-2018, 04:46 AM
Post: #27
RE: Why have Martial Arts been so important in East Asian societies in particular?
^ great post.

In Pride if you put up a good show and fought honorably you would get invited back. minowa was a good example of this. no fear, he gave it his all even if he got his ass kicked.

that's the spirit of martial arts. it's supposed to imbue a sense of honor in people. yet in the west, it's all about WINNING

like TITO ORTIZ SAID "IF YOU AIN'T CHEATIN' YOU AIN'T TRYIN'"
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01-18-2018, 04:48 AM
Post: #28
RE: Why have Martial Arts been so important in East Asian societies in particular?
also to be fair it's not always about honor regarding the juicing thing. I think asians are in general very suspicious of chemicals and unnatural substances.

that stuff wreaks havoc on the hormones and the QI BALANCE of the body.
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01-18-2018, 05:17 AM
Post: #29
RE: Why have Martial Arts been so important in East Asian societies in particular?
(01-18-2018 04:46 AM)EVILYOSHIDA Wrote:  that's the spirit of martial arts. it's supposed to imbue a sense of honor in people. yet in the west, it's all about WINNING

Yes. In my opinion, the purpose of Martial Arts in modern society is to teach and inspire honor, discipline and most importantly and confidence and bravery. The goal is to make modern man, domesticated as he may be, stronger by opening a window to an older Warrior Ethos inside of him. Hence that phrase 'Weekend Warrior'.

You'll notice in all my posts, I'm most critical of Martial Arts that fail to teach bravery. While I am fascinated by things like Wing Chun and Medieval Swordsmanship, I know the actual practice of these things today is crippling to a young man's self-confidence, not an enhancer of it.

Many beta males join Martial Arts for all the right reasons; they want to become stronger, more confident, and more comfortable with their bodies and physical contact. Their downfall however, is that more often than not, they choose Martial Arts that look safe and nonthreatening, and 'magical' through their eyes.

Then they invest years looking up to a master, who is often a con-man, and waste years practicing forms, routines, stances, poses etc. in a non-competitive environment, where they don't get more comfortable with physical contact, they don't practice against resisting opponents, they're not exposed to random dangers, and they don't get the guys in shape. They end up soft, with puny arms, bitch-tits, uncomfortable being touched, no real fight-IQ, stubborn, feel threatened by and reject all MMA, and do something that deep down, they feel embarrassed of; LARPing.

Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxing, Full-Contact Karate on the other hand, would have transformed these same guys into strong, confident, fit men.

[Image: blog_AdonisBelt-1024x893_large.jpg?4170247124670899264]
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01-18-2018, 05:19 AM
Post: #30
RE: Why have Martial Arts been so important in East Asian societies in particular?
Japanese MA imo does teach bravery.. esp. Judo and Kyokushin Karate

also nothing wrong with soft styles like Wing Chun IMO. Wing Chun is logical as a system the problem is there is no consistent conditioning regimen
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