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the explosion of bullshit jobs / universal basic income discussion
09-19-2017, 05:01 AM
Post: #16
RE: the explosion of bullshit jobs
Quote:Andrew Maillet • 10 months ago
The fact that capitalism creates pointless jobs may be related to an inherent flaw in the idea of the profit motive.

There is evidence to suggest that when people are engaged in meaningful work that actually matters (whether singing in an indie band or working as a lawyer for an NGO fighting corruption or whatnot) they are motivated very little or even negatively by desire for profit. This thesis developed in the book Drive by Daniel H. Pink.

When capitalists realize that people are not motivated to do meaningful work by profit, and in many cases would do it regardless of their payment (as can be shown with the phenomenon of Wikipedia, gigantic free internet music cultures such as SoundCloud), they naturally reduce wages for these workers, often justifying such action by stating that the work is so enjoyable or intellectually stimulating that "the reward is the work itself."

As technology becomes cheaper and more widely available, industries driven by creative and intellectual activity tend towards exploiting this free labor more and more, meaning that jobs people actually get paid to do are more frequently those that are unnecessary and meaningless. It also means that as corporations absorb and isolate more and more of the capital at the top, people are "employed" in a new way as consumers-for-hire, compelled to behave as mindless datapoints in social-media-driven advertising campaigns.

I'm interested to see Graeber's work on this subject developed further.
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09-19-2017, 08:24 AM
Post: #17
RE: the explosion of bullshit jobs
Quote:Basic Income will help us rethink how & why we work A basic income can help you do other work and reconsider old choices: It will enable you to retrain, safe in the knowledge that you’ll have enough money to maintain a decent standard of living while you do.

Basic Income will contribute to better working conditions With the insurance of having unconditional basic income as a safety net, workers can challenge their employers if they find their conditions of work unfair or degrading.

Basic Income will downsize bureaucracy Because a basic income scheme is one of the most simple tax / benefits models, it will reduce all the bureaucracy surrounding the welfare state thus making it less complex and costly, while being fairer and more emancipatory.

Basic income will make benefit fraud obsolete As an extension of (3), benefit fraud will vanish as a possibility because no one needs to commit fraud to get a basic income: it is granted automatically.

Basic income will help reducing inequalities A basic income is also a means for sharing out the wealth produced by a society to all people thereby reducing the growing inequalities across the world.

It will provide a more secure and substantial safety net for all people Most existing means-tested anti-poverty schemes exclude people because of their complexity, or because people don’t even know how to apply or whether they qualify. With a basic income, people currently excluded from benefit allowances will automatically have their rights guaranteed.

Basic Income will contribute to less working hours and better distribution of jobs With a basic income, people will have the option to reduce their working hours without sacrificing their income. They will therefore be able to spend more time doing other things they find meaningful. At the macroeconomic level, this will induce a better distribution of jobs because people reducing their hours will increase the jobs opportunities for those currently excluded from the labor market.

Basic Income will reward unpaid contributions A huge number of unpaid activities are currently not recognized as economic contributions. Yet, our economy increasingly relies on these free contributions (think about wikipedia as well as the work parents do). A Basic Income would recognise and reward theses activities.

Basic Income will strengthen our Democracy With a minimum level of security guaranteed to all citizens and less time in work or worrying about work, innovation in political, social, economic and technological terms would be a made more lively part of everyday life and its concerns.

Basic Income is a fair redistribution of technological advancement Thanks to massive advancements in our technological and productive capacities the world of work is changing. Yet most of our wealth and technology is as a consequence of our ‘standing on the shoulders of giants’: We are wealthier not as a result of our own efforts and merits but those of our ancestors. Basic income is a way to civilize and redistribute the advantages of that on-going advancement.

Basic Income will end extreme financial poverty Because we live in a world where we have the means (and one hopes, the will) to end the kinds of suffering we see as a supposedly constant feature of our surroundings. Basic income is a way to join together the means and the will.

Source: basicincome.org.uk

can't really disagree with any of this. HIGHLY AGREE WITH THE BOLD
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09-19-2017, 08:37 AM
Post: #18
RE: the explosion of bullshit jobs
this would also support the traditional family as the mom (or sometimes dad) can stay at home and take care of the kids which would lead to LESS CRIME and DELINQUENCY among the youth.

save a shit ton of money

save a shit ton of money by getting rid of the entire BUREACRACY of the welfare /benefit workers who have to check for claims fraud etc.

people would be less stressed out and there would be a HUGE REDUCTION IN CRIME

at the same time if you want to make more money you can just work more or harder.

this is a baseline safety net.

TAX WALL STREET ALSO TO PAY FOR THIS. WALL STREET TRANSACTION TAX
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09-19-2017, 08:39 AM
Post: #19
RE: the explosion of bullshit jobs
Basic income is inevitable. There are for example about 4 million truck drivers in the United States. Plus several more million couriers , cab drivers, so forth. In only a few years these people will lose their jobs due to the mass production of driverless cars. Automation will force basic income or else every country will look like India with hundreds of millions of starving unemployable people living in shanty towns.
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09-19-2017, 08:44 AM
Post: #20
RE: the explosion of bullshit jobs
people could also more freely pursue their dreams as well.

you could start a little business on the side to get some extra pocket money like making handmade soap

you would have the free time to work on music and eventually play it live for an audience for a fee.

you could write books or make endless youtube video logs.

at the same time you would need to maintain some type of social insecurity because you don't want people to feel everything is in a passive frozen state. there still we be rich people driving ferraris and lamborghinis that would make some people envious. but at the least no one 'MIRIN a Ferrari would be homeless and missing their front teeth.

Also under this system all hard drugs should be banned. Marijuana should be decriminalized but not supported by the establishment.

also maybe environmentally it would be good too. with basic income I could see the simple life movement gaining ground. people not wanting a ton of possessions. if you want it you can get it, but you should pay more

the price of meat should also be higher and the animals treated better before slaughter.

we could be living in paradise on earth with ALL OF THE TECH PROGRESS achieved. but instead they make people work HARDER even though it takes only 1 person to do today what it would probably take 20 people before the age of automation and computers.
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09-19-2017, 08:46 AM
Post: #21
RE: the explosion of bullshit jobs
(09-19-2017 08:39 AM)CTsar Wrote:  Basic income is inevitable. There are for example about 4 million truck drivers in the United States. Plus several more million couriers , cab drivers, so forth. In only a few years these people will lose their jobs due to the mass production of driverless cars. Automation will force basic income or else every country will look like India with hundreds of millions of starving unemployable people living in shanty towns.

Yep.

the libtards are trying to put a commie spin on it but I don't see it that way. I see it as a practical way for people to gain MORE LEISURE TIME which IMO would free up people's minds to THINK ABOUT THE WORLD CONSPIRACY MORE. it would benefit the anti-NWO cause.

also I seriously don't see why working your ass off for some reptilian corporate overlords is such a virtue? you think god is going to bless you since you programmed some DEATH MACHINES for LOCKHEED or RAYTHEON? can the scientist even sleep at night if he realizes what he has done? or google programmers who contribute to the 1984ization of our society?

Those who know, know! Big Grin
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09-19-2017, 08:54 AM
Post: #22
RE: the explosion of bullshit jobs
Quote:Andrew Maillet • 10 months ago
The fact that capitalism creates pointless jobs may be related to an inherent flaw in the idea of the profit motive.

And bureaucracies are so much more efficient. Rolleyes
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09-19-2017, 08:55 AM
Post: #23
RE: the explosion of bullshit jobs
Quote:Finland is preparing to test out a universal basic income. Currently, the country is soliciting feedback, and the actual test is expected to be carried out in 2017 and 2018 with results available by 2019, according to a written statement from the country's Ministry of Social Affairs and Health. As part of the study, 2,000 individuals will receive a payment of 560 euros ($598) per month, according to a press release.

Activists in the Netherlands collected 60,000 signatures requesting that the government consider a referendum on a universal basic income. The Dutch group, which calls itself Basisinkomen 2018, promotes the idea of a basic income of 1000 euros ($1067) per adult and 200 euros ($213) per child.

"We are in favor of a basic income because everybody has enough security to feel free and to make own choices. To care or to have an own business. To work or to volunteer," writes Johan Luijendijk, the leader of the Basisinkomen 2018 movement, in an email with CNBC. "When someone can live starting from own talents and callings, it's better for everyone. With basic income we can cut social security and huge bureaucracy."'

THE UBI should not be VERY HIGH. IT SHOULD BE LOW ENOUGH TO INCENTIVIZE PEOPLE TO DO PART TIME WORK or PURSUE SOMETHING FURTHER ON THE SIDE OR EVEN FULL TIME.

IF YOU ARE PAST A THRESHOLD, say 10x the monthly UBI AMOUNT, YOU DO NOT RECEIVE UBI.

This can be beautiful.
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09-19-2017, 08:56 AM
Post: #24
RE: the explosion of bullshit jobs
(09-19-2017 08:54 AM)kungfool Wrote:  
Quote:Andrew Maillet • 10 months ago
The fact that capitalism creates pointless jobs may be related to an inherent flaw in the idea of the profit motive.

And bureaucracies are so much more efficient. Rolleyes

yeah it's not capitalism that is to blame. it's MONOPOLY CAPITALISM with SOCIALIST CHARACTERISTICS that is to blame. that is our system in the USA.

Those who know, know! Big Grin
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09-19-2017, 08:59 AM
Post: #25
RE: the explosion of bullshit jobs
but the dude is also right about people not being entirely motivated by profit.

otherwise you wouldn't have millions of starving musicians aroun teh world. or you wouldn't get people editing wiki for free

even a site like this that charges ZERO and people just do it for the love. the guy is right, but it's not capitalism that is to blame.

the assumption of rational choice profit maximization is just total BS. that's what they taught me in B-school. what a joke.

people are motivated by PUSSY or the thought of potentially getting PUSSY. if women disappeared from the world, men would just stay in the house and play GAMES ALL DAY LONG. eating hot dogs and ho hos
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09-19-2017, 09:01 AM
Post: #26
RE: the explosion of bullshit jobs / universal basic income discussion
also note that one of the arguments for UBI is that it ELIMINATES TONS OF BUREACRACY

no more FAKE JOBS NEEDED to SUSTAIN THE SYSTEM
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09-19-2017, 09:01 AM
Post: #27
RE: the explosion of bullshit jobs
(09-19-2017 08:56 AM)EVILYOSHIDA Wrote:  yeah it's not capitalism that is to blame. it's MONOPOLY CAPITALISM with SOCIALIST CHARACTERISTICS that is to blame. that is our system in the USA.

Sure. When an organization becomes extremely large the waste it produces multiplies, especially with labor costs and equipment and stuff.

But profit incentive is like a negative feedback loop that curbs the waste somewhat. Someone identifies a source of overspending and can turn that into revenue.

To think that UBI turning the whole society into Welfare recipients is going to help people rebel against the system is equally unlikely.

These middle-America Truck drivers are going to need more than just food and shelter. They need PURPOSE. They need STRUGGLE. They need WORK.
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09-19-2017, 09:02 AM
Post: #28
RE: the explosion of bullshit jobs / universal basic income discussion
And what happens if we offer UBI without clamping down on immigration?

Why will the whole world not try to flock to the US?
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09-19-2017, 09:05 AM
Post: #29
RE: the explosion of bullshit jobs / universal basic income discussion
(09-19-2017 09:02 AM)kungfool Wrote:  And what happens if we offer UBI without clamping down on immigration?

Why will the whole world not try to flock to the US?

that is why I said this would not work without STRICT IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT

UBI WOULD FORCE GOVTs to KEEP ECONOMIC MIGRANTS OUT!

in a twisted way this is a conservative policy

UBI could bring us back to the days where mothers were rulers of the household instead of slaving away at meaningless jobs like men.

Those who know, know! Big Grin
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09-19-2017, 09:08 AM
Post: #30
RE: the explosion of bullshit jobs / universal basic income discussion
(09-19-2017 09:01 AM)kungfool Wrote:  These middle-America Truck drivers are going to need more than just food and shelter. They need PURPOSE. They need STRUGGLE. They need WORK.

then maybe pot should remain legal.
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