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Poll: Was Fawkes Set up?
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Was Guy Fawkes set up in the "Gunpowder Plot?"
04-17-2016, 08:50 AM
Post: #16
RE: Was Guy Fawkes set up in the "Gunpowder Plot?"
Quote: Up until 1959, it was illegal to not celebrate Bonfire Night in Britain.

● There was an exception to the law, as St Peter's School in York where Guy Fawkes attended still refuses to burn effigies of its former pupil.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/bonfire-night-2...ht-1526850


Quote:Jon E. Lewis
The Mammoth Book of Cover-Ups


...
Catesby and his followers were tracked to Holbeche House, Staffordshire, where he and several others died in the ensuing gun battle. The rest were captured and committed for trial.

Except, that is, for one Francis Tresham. He alone out of all the plotters was spared the horror of being hung, drawn and quartered, which seems odd considering that anyone else who had anything remotely to do with the plot was summarily executed. Perhaps his immunity from that horrible fate can be explained by his association with Cecil. It was assumed that Tresham was the author of that anonymous letter to his friend Monteagle, though some claim it was Cecil himself. In any event, Monteagle’s loyalty to the crown had already been bought by the king’s previous leniency.

In 1601 the Earl of Essex, Robert Devereux, had marched on the city of London to highlight abuses he felt had been perpetrated by the Privy Council in general and Robert Cecil in particular. Devereux was arrested along with his supporters Robert Catesby, Lord Monteagle and Francis Tresham.

Those who believe Cecil was behind the whole Gunpowder Plot claim that, at this point, Tresham and even Catesby himself became double-agents for Cecil in return for being spared execution. Certainly, having one or more men on the inside of the conspiracy would have explained why Cecil had been in no rush to uncover the plot. It would also explain how he could have masterminded events to further his own ends, giving the green light to further persecution of Catholics—whom he despised for their allegiance to another ruler (i.e. the Pope)—and to the lucrative confiscation of monastic lands.
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04-17-2016, 10:04 AM
Post: #17
RE: Was Guy Fawkes set up in the "Gunpowder Plot?"
From Wikipedia's informal discussion section:
Quote:The relevant 1604 Tower of London gunpowder store log book is inexplicably missing.

No evidence for the claimed tunnel actually exists. No digging noise was ever reported in Parliament. No earth seen being moved.
The cellar was rented to William Percy by a John Whynniard, a government officer and close friend of Robert Cecil. Just as the plot was discovered, John Whynniard died a sudden and mysterious death.

Robert Cecil immediately deduced the plot was to blow up parliament from the rather vague warning letter, yet a search of Parliament was only undertaken on the afternoon of the 4 of November, by the Lord Chamberlain, Thomas Howard, Earl of Suffolk, accompanied by Monteagle and John Whynniardone, a mere day before the opening of parliament on the 5 of November, and a full 9 days after the so called warning letter was received. The 9 day delay in searching Parliament has never been explained.

Fawkes was in the cellar at the time of the initial search, and claimed the pile as belonging to Thomas Percy. After warning Percy, he supposedly returned to the cellar, when just before midnight, a second search led by led by Sir Thomas Knyvett, a Westminster magistrate and Gentleman of the Privy Chamber, arrested him in possession of a watch, slow matches and touchwood. Why Fawkes would return when he suspected the plot was discovered is unclear. Further, it is unclear why Fawkes would choose to carry around such incriminating items after the earlier search, as they could have been readily hidden anywhere in the cellar.

The cellar was hired in March 1605. By August 1605 Fawkes had to replace spoiled barrels of gunpowder, indicating gunpowder went off after 3 months kept in those conditions. The plot was supposedly for November 5, another 3 months on. Subsequent Tower of London records confirm at least some of the powder was once again spoiled ("decayed").

Because all the conspirators were killed, and other relevant parties such John Whynniard (the cellar owner) had near simultaneous deaths, it subsequently became almost impossible to get real answers to many of the above questions.
http://wikivisually.com/wiki/Talk:Gunpow...ki_ph_id_8

Here was a response by a supporter of the official story:
Quote:I can refute some of your points immediately though.
*
Quote:"The cellar was hired in March 1605. By August 1605 Fawkes had to replace spoiled barrels of gunpowder, indicating gunpowder went off after 3 months kept in those conditions. The plot was supposedly for November 5, another 3 months on. Subsequent Tower of London records confirm at least some of the powder was once again spoiled ("decayed").

This one is easy. Parliaments opening was delayed due to the appearance of plague, first to Feb 7th then October 1st. The plotters were not ready for the first opening. The plotters therefore had the powder ready too early for the second opening date and it got a bit damp.

* The earl of Salisbury described Tresham's complaint as a ‘natural sickness, such as he hath been a long time subject to’ (Memorials of Affairs of State … Collected … from the Original Papers of Sir Ralph Winwood, ed. E. Sawyer, 3 vols., 1725, 2.189). This was almost certainly a strangury. His lingering, painful end was documented at length by his trusted servant William Vavasour, who along with Tresham's wife and a nurse, Joan Sisor, had regular access to the stricken man." from ONDB His head was put on a spike anyway,
http://wikivisually.com/wiki/Talk:Gunpow...ki_ph_id_8
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04-17-2016, 10:54 AM
Post: #18
RE: Was Guy Fawkes set up in the "Gunpowder Plot?"
(04-17-2016 08:33 AM)EVILYOSHIDA Wrote:  yes. the anti-clerical stance has been very prevalent in the west since at least the 1600s.
Anglicanism is "clerical" too.

But in the 1500's the low church Reformed movement that made roads in Anglicanism (eg. on the Eucharist not actually being Jesus' body, see Cranmer) was materialistic and naturalistic. The rock music is like secular music, not mystical, although some Protestants like Charismatics try to reenter the mystical.


(04-17-2016 08:33 AM)EVILYOSHIDA Wrote:  it's irrational in a way. the catholic church has been responsible for some of the greatest advancements/achievements in human history. genetics, science, music, art, architecture etc. etc.

compare protestant rock music with catholic sacred polyphony. no comparison. catholics take the religion more seriously IMO.

but the church has been subverted. would you agree Rako?
The Roman Church was subverted long ago, and it's hard to tell when exactly. A big issue is the Papal Infallibility doctrine. One of the 19th century Popes even announced that this doctrine was wrong and that he did not have ex cathedra infallibility as it has been taught. He did not like the idea because it effectively tied him and his successors to all previous popes' ex cathedra statements, so that he could not reject them even though he was the pope.
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04-17-2016, 11:27 AM
Post: #19
RE: Was Guy Fawkes set up in the "Gunpowder Plot?"
(04-17-2016 08:36 AM)EVILYOSHIDA Wrote:  
Quote:Also, if Fawkes and company had been set-up by, why did he not say so at his execution when he could have said something? Possibly he was not in a fit enough state to say anything; also who would have believed him as he had been castigated as the evil conspirator to kill the king?

maybe he did say something but no one heard it except for the controllers standing close to him.

there was no amplification back then. the plebs watching could not really hear him most likely.


It's a weird story. The soldiers go into the cellar during the day on Nov 4 and find Guy Fawkes there. But they didn't find any barrels of gunpowder. So.... what was Fawkes doing there, trying to set things up for the next day? OK.

Then Fawkes warned Percy that they had been discovered.

Then that night there are two stories on catching Fawkes- either Knyvett and other soldiers caught him at another house or else they caught him in the act of lighting the fuse, with a watch, matches, and firewood. Is it really likely that they caught him doing this?

No for a simple reason that the incident was planned to occur the next daytime day when the king was in parliament on Nov 5.
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04-17-2016, 02:52 PM (This post was last modified: 04-17-2016 03:25 PM by Rako.)
Post: #20
RE: Was Guy Fawkes set up in the "Gunpowder Plot?"
EY, you wrote:
Quote:maybe he did say something but no one heard it except for the controllers standing close to him.
there was no amplification back then. the plebs watching could not really hear him most likely.
Good thinking out of the box.

Let me give you a somewhat similar scenario I have been puzzling over based on another famous real life mystery.
Let's say that you have a situation where a few newspapers claim that after two people get executed for felony murder, their priest announced to his church that executed suspect (A) admitted that executed prisoner (B)'s confession was correct. Executed prisoner B's confession says that prisoner A gave prisoner C a gun, with which prisoner C killed the victim whose murder A and B were executed for. Under the law, knowingly helping a murderer with a robbery in which someone is murdered means that A and C are guilty of "felony murder". Yet newspaper reporters at the execution claimed that the executed suspect (A)'s last words were that he was innocent.

One option is that A did provide a gun for the robbery and was thus legally guilty, but believes he is "innocent" because he never told them to kill anyone with it.

Another option is that A provided a gun, but had no idea it would be used in a robbery. This seems pretty unlikely. According to one account that the defense lawyer F gave, the prisoner A said to the priest that he knew that the robbery was going to occur.

A third option is that the newspapers lied about this. This looks unlikely when it would be so easily refuted and the defendants' families would want to refute it.

A fourth option is that the priest was immoral and made up that A admitted the confession's truth, or "fudged"/embellished this. The priest was known to be a political opponent of the defendants, and it's true that a priest even revealing a confession would be immoral. But there does not seem to be a strong enough motivation for why a priest would knowingly make up a confession. He had good relations with other people in that church.

A fifth option is that the priest was confused about what the person A said. Maybe the person A only said that person B's confession was genuinely made by B, but not that B's confession was correct. It seems like something the priest would not be confused about.

A sixth option is that the newspapers were confused about the priest's claim, but this seems unlikely because earlier they had claimed that the prisoners admitted their guilt to the priest, even before they claimed that the priest announced it to the parish. So it doesn't look like the newspapers were just confused about what the priest had said, as they had run this line more than once.

It simply looks hard to get around Option 1 because of the process of deduction, even though the other options look much more interesting.
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04-18-2016, 01:49 PM
Post: #21
RE: Was Guy Fawkes set up in the "Gunpowder Plot?"
Quote:Dr Redworth's findings have come from his book The She-Apostle, telling the story of Luisa de Carvajal, a Spanish woman who came to London in 1605, with the aim of supporting England's Catholics, who faced persecution under the Protestant King James.

[Image: _45174044_-4.jpg]
Henry Garnet at the gallows

Her letters have some familiar complaints - the housing in London is over-priced and the locals get drunk and rowdy at the weekends.

This is also a London of religious intolerance, violence, plagues, public executions, torture and secret agents, plots and counter-terror.

The man who brought her to this dangerous place was Henry Garnet, and Dr Redworth says the timing of her arrival, in the months when the plotters were planning their attack, points away from the idea he was part of the conspiracy.

If he was desperate to avoid detection while planning to kill the king, he wouldn't have smuggled in a Spaniard who stood out like a sore thumb, says the University of Manchester historian.

"He wouldn't bring over this rare and exotic woman, who couldn't speak a word of English, who could so easily attract attention and lead people to the plot."

Luisa, familiar with the Catholic families in London and influenced by the opinions of Garnet, reveals in her letters a deep hostility to the plotters.

The historian believes that Luisa’s criticism of the "foolish and impudent" plotters was a direct reflection of Garnet's own views, and suggests that he was wrongly arrested as a sympathiser.

Political expediency

The Jesuits were associated with a threat from overseas - and by punishing a Jesuit, it made it easier for King James to avoid blaming all English Catholics. In propaganda terms, it turned an attempted English rebellion into a foreign-inspired plot.

There was one more verdict on Garnet. The crowd who gathered to see the execution underwent a change of heart, turning against the executioners.

In one version of events the crowd pulled on his legs when he was hanging to save him from being disembowelled and ripped apart while still alive.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7688786.stm
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04-21-2016, 09:12 AM
Post: #22
RE: Was Guy Fawkes set up in the "Gunpowder Plot?"
The Parliament of the UK website presents the dissident POV as if it's respectable:

Quote:[Image: parliament-uk-logo.gif]

What exactly was the Gunpowder Plot?
The Gunpowder Plot is the name given to the conspiracy to blow up the Houses of Parliament on 5 November 1605, which was discovered the night before. The origins of the plot remain unclear and it is doubtful that the truth will ever be known. Generations of historians accepted it was an attempt to re-establish the Catholic religion. Others, in more recent times, have suspected that the plot was the work of a group of agents-provocateurs, anxious to discredit the Jesuits and reinforce the ascendancy of the Protestant religion.

How was the Plot discovered?
The plot was discovered, in the official version, through an anonymous letter to Lord Monteagle, a Catholic, warning him not to attend the State Opening. Whether the letter was genuine or a forgery is uncertain.
http://www.parliament.uk/about/faqs/hous...wder-plot/
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04-25-2016, 08:39 AM
Post: #23
RE: Was Guy Fawkes set up in the "Gunpowder Plot?"
Quote:Robert Poley
From Wikipedia

Robert Poley, or Pooley (fl. 1568–1602) was an English double agent, government messenger and agent provocateur employed by members of the Privy Council during the reign of Queen Elizabeth I; he was described as "the very genius of the Elizabethan underworld".[1] Poley is particularly noted for his central role in uncovering the so-called Babington plot to assassinate the Queen in 1586,[2] and for being a witness of, and even a possible party to, the reported killing in self-defence by Ingram Frizer of the famous poet/dramatist Christopher Marlowe in May 1593.
...
Sir Francis died in 1590, but payments continued to be made to Poley mainly by the Vice-Chamberlain, Sir Thomas Heneage or the Lord Treasurer, Lord Burghley, until Heneage's death in October 1595, and after that mainly by Burghley's son Sir Robert Cecil.

There was another probably much longer period of imprisonment for him in the Summer of 1597, when it seems that he was placed in the Marshalsea to spy on the playwright Ben Jonson whose play, The Isle of Dogs, written with Thomas Nashe had upset the authorities. Jonson attacked Poley and a second informer, named Parrot, as "damned villains" and later wrote a poem praising convivial company without spies, including the line "we shall have no Poley or Parrot by".[19]

The last payment known to have been received by Poley was 5 September 1601, when he was paid £10, by Sir Robert Cecil, for carrying post from and to Paris. This is the last heard of him except for a letter he wrote to Cecil on 18 July the following year. He sends information concerning Jesuits and their means of entering the country, but also indicates that his relationship with Cecil is now rather strained, saying, "How, half offended, you said to me I never made you good intelligence, nor did you service worth reckoning, is the cause I have not since presented myself with offer of my duty, although I much desire my endeavours might please you, my necessities needing your favour."[20] The place and date of his death is unknown.
Simple question. Poley is about 34 in 1602 and is in Paris. In July he has a letter sent to Cecil showing his very strained relations with Cecil, such that he says that he hasn't even presented himself to Cecil for work because Cecil dismissed his work. And after that he is never heard from again. He is young enough to have many more years of natural life left to him. So what happened?
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04-25-2016, 09:17 AM
Post: #24
RE: Was Guy Fawkes set up in the "Gunpowder Plot?"
They did quite a number on using torture to get the truth.

Here's signature before and after torture???!!!

[Image: guy-fawkes-signature2.jpg]
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04-25-2016, 02:20 PM
Post: #25
RE: Was Guy Fawkes set up in the "Gunpowder Plot?"
torture is the worst method of getting at the truth.

it probably only works if you need to find out where someone is like "WHERE IS OSAMA BIN LADEN"
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04-25-2016, 07:12 PM
Post: #26
RE: Was Guy Fawkes set up in the "Gunpowder Plot?"
I have a feeling if you have the information then torture will get it from you.

--I Eat Grits--
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04-25-2016, 10:48 PM
Post: #27
RE: Was Guy Fawkes set up in the "Gunpowder Plot?"
(04-25-2016 07:12 PM)Billygoat Wrote:  I have a feeling if you have the information then torture will get it from you.

Or if the inquisition has the information and you dont, then torture by the inquisition will get it from you.

That's why it's not reliable.
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04-26-2016, 06:03 AM
Post: #28
RE: Was Guy Fawkes set up in the "Gunpowder Plot?"
If you have it they'll get it, reliable or not. If it's not reliable we kill your kids then torture you some more.

--I Eat Grits--
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04-26-2016, 12:51 PM (This post was last modified: 04-26-2016 12:51 PM by Rako.)
Post: #29
RE: Was Guy Fawkes set up in the "Gunpowder Plot?"
Festival of anti-Catholic intolerance

[Image: 25FYI-master675.jpg]

[Image: people-celebrating-guy-fawkes-day-with-b...id50500848]

[Image: Screenshot+%2887%29.png]

[Image: 1415305898974_Image_galleryImage_CB3PNF_...e_nigh.JPG]

Imagine if that were Mohammed. LOL.
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04-26-2016, 01:23 PM
Post: #30
RE: Was Guy Fawkes set up in the "Gunpowder Plot?"
interesting pictures.

it represents the hatred of the old world order by the new world order
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