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Just thought I'd share this here. I've been researching the idea of the Trinity, which suggests that the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit are ALL God, in effect, and considered the three persons of the Godhead(which is ONE??).

Because I was raised catholic, this idea stuck with me even after my brief period of atheism when I REALLY decided that God(YHWH) WAS real and that the Bible was inspired by Him.

It's only been recently that I have begun questioning particular dogma that simply cannot be backed up by the very Bible catholics AND protestants(who also subscribe to the Trinity) purport to accept as YHWH's Word.

It's no wonder that most Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, considering this heresy(imo)...

God Is Echad
After revealing both His name and His image, God begins to reveal how He exists. Consider Deuteronomy 6:4- Hear, O Israel: The *LORD our **God is one *LORD. Gentiles often do not attach the same importance to Deuteronomy 6:4 as do Jews; this verse is the foundation of their religion. Here is how it looks in the Hebrew Scriptures:
Hear, O Israel: The *LORD our **God, the *LORD is one. (Shema, Yisrael, YHWH Elohim, YHWH echad.)
“Shema Israel A-do-noi E-lo-he-nu, A-do-noi echad” is the song of the Jews; they are commanded to say it twice each day. Notice that they have substituted Adonoi twice for God’s name, YHWH.

When textual scholars translate YHWH Elohim, they nearly always use the words LORD GOD. Christian translators follow the Jews, using LORD in place of YHWH. Now let us take a look at what the Jews use for scriptural debates concerning their God (notations following):
35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the *LORD he is ***God; - there is none else beside him. . . . 39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the *LORD he is ***God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. (Deut. 4:35, 39)
Remember the former things of old: for I am ****God, and there is none else; I am ***God, and there is none like me,
(Isa. 46:9)
5 I am the *LORD, and there is none else, there is no ***God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the *LORD, and there is none else. (Isa. 45:5-6)
For thus saith the *LORD that created the heavens; ***God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the *LORD; and there is none else. (Isa. 45:18)
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the *LORD? And there is no*** God else beside me; a just ****God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am *God, and there is none else. (Isa. 45:21-22)

Did you notice how often we see God declaring there is NO ONE other than Him? Twelve times! Basic thought? There is no other God—no one else like me or beside me- there is none else. “I am YHWH!”

There is none holy as the* LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our *God. (1 Sam. 2:2)
Wherefore thou art great, O *LORD **God: for there is none like thee, neither is there any **God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (2 Sam. 7:22)
O *LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any **God beside thee, according to all that we have heard with our ears. (1 Chron. 17:20)

Five more times! Doesn’t there seem to be a very straightforward, simple message in all of these scriptures?

more to come....
Quote:It's no wonder that most Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, considering this heresy(imo)...

well in order to fulfill jewish messianic requirements.. the messiah woudl have to be human, a warrior and rule the entire world from Israel. the entire world would be subject to Jewish law. you can read that in the tanakh.
With both Jews and Christians naturally promoting their respective infected views of God, the translations seem to get a little cloudy. Let me give you what I feel is a clear, summary interpretation of these scriptures. Notice how different it is from what the Christian Church teaches:
I am YHWH ELOHIM and there is no one else who is equal to me and there is no one else who is the Father, but me! I am the supreme authority in the entire universe and everything else, & EVERYONE ELSE, is subject and submitted to me!

Yeshua (Jesus) refutes the Three are Co-Equal with Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
If, as Trinitarians claim, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are coequals, how is it that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the only unpardonable sin?

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (Matt. 12:31-32)
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. (Mark 3:28-29)
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. (Luke 12:10)

more to come...
well it makes sense why the Catholic Church's teaching is not the most pure.

because they are a universal mission that need to adapt to every culture in the world.

if they just enforced this middle eastern book.. no one would listen to them.

so they basically water down or make it very general to attract the widest audience.

I actually agree that the RCC probably corrupted a lot of the original teachings, but at the same time the bible is up to interpretation.

but to me.. belief is just one part.. the more important thing is that a religion brings moral structure to society and I think the RCC does a good job of that. they also help people with the most charities worldwide. so if you judge by action they are quite good.
The only Trinity I contemplate these days is a fond remembrance of Trinity Loren???!!!
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Or even this Loren???!!!!
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(12-24-2013 08:35 AM)EVILYOSHIDA Wrote: [ -> ]
Quote:It's no wonder that most Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, considering this heresy(imo)...

well in order to fulfill jewish messianic requirements.. the messiah woudl have to be human, a warrior and rule the entire world from Israel. the entire world would be subject to Jewish law. you can read that in the tanakh.

I'll divert for a moment. This is only true if they were to ignore MANY scripture in the OT...

1. He would be born of a Virgin (Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:18).
2. He would be of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10 and Luke 3:23, 33).
3. He would be of King David's seed (Jeremiah 23:5 and Luke 3:23, 31).
4. He would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2 and Matthew 2:1).
5. He would be a prophet (Deuteronomy 18:18-19 and Matthew 21:11).
6. He would teach with parables (Psalms 78:2 and Matthew 13:34).
7. He would be preceded by a messenger (Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1, and Matthew 3:1-2).
8. He would enter Jerusalem on a colt (Zechariah 9:9 and Luke 19:35-37).
9. He would be betrayed by a friend (Psalms 41:9 and Matthew 26:47-50).
10. He would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12 and Matthew 26:15).
11. He would be forsaken by His disciples (Zechariah 13:7 and Mark 14:50).
12. The money would be thrown in the temple and used to buy the potter's field (Zechariah 11:13 and Matthew 27:5-7).
13. He would be accused by false witnesses (Psalms 35:11 and Matthew 26:59-60).
14. He would be silent before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7 and Matthew 27:12-14).
15. He would be beaten by his enemies (Isaiah 50:6, 53:5, and Matthew 27:26).
16. He would be spit upon and beaten (Isaiah 50:6 and Matthew 27:30).
17. He would be struck in the head with a rod (Micah 5:1 and Matthew 27:30).
18. He would be mocked (Psalms 22:7-8 and Matthew 27:29, 31).
19. His hands and feet would be pierced (Psalms 22:16, Luke 23:33, and John 20:25).
Note that this was predicted hundreds of years before crucifixion was invented.
20. Men would gamble for His clothing (Psalms 22:18 and John 19:23-24).
21. He would intercede in prayer for His transgressors (Isaiah 53:12 and Luke 23:34).
22. He would suffer thirst (Psalms 22:15 and John 19:28).
23. He would be offered gall and water (Psalms 69:21 and Matthew 27:34).
24. He would cry, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me!" (Psalms 22:1 and Matthew 27:46).
25. He would be cut down in His prime (Psalms 89:45 and 102:23-24).
26. None of His bones would be broken (Exodus 12:46, Psalms 34:20, and John 19:32-33).
27. They would look upon Him whom they had pierced (Zechariah 12:10 and John 19:34).
28. He would be executed with thieves (Isaiah 53:12 and Matthew 27:38).
29. He would be buried in a rich man's tomb (Isaiah 53:9 and Matthew 27:57-60).
The Jewish Tanakh is the same as the Christian Hebrew Old Testament... so that's what i'm talking about.

there is literally SO MUCH stuff in these books you could support any position with the book!

is it a surprise that the RCC doesn't take it literally?
The sixth chapter of John is very direct. Verses 26-65 give us a clear picture of the relationship between Father and Son, and where the Son came from.
Here are a few examples:
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (John 6:38-39)
What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? (John 6:62)
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (John 8:42)
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. (John 16:27-28)
I came out from God… I came forth from the Father.

These two phrases could not make the pre-existence of Yeshua (Jesus) any clearer.
from the OT:

Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)
The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).
Yeshua(Jesus) was not created out of anything (or out of nothing) as other celestial beings. He was the only one birthed from the Father. Being birthed from a complete, plural being, the Son could only be what the parent Elohim was: another plural being.

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (John 5:26)
He had life within Himself.

What is Yeshua (Jesus) talking about and why is he telling us this? It is something that has nothing to do with me, the human race, or even the planet. Yeshua (Jesus) is telling us an incredible secret about Himself and the Father. He is showing us that He has this same attribute as the Father, life within Himself.

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. (John 17:1-5)
This passage conclusively indicates that Yeshua (Jesus) was with His Father before the world began. Verse 5, in particular, could not have been written if Yeshua (Jesus) were just a seed in the Father before Mary conceived.
Quote:Believing in Belief

John Gray argues that the scientific and rationalist attack on religion is misguided. Extreme atheists do not realise that for most people across the globe, religion is not generally about personal belief. Instead, "Practice - ritual, meditation, a way of life - is what counts." Central to religion is the power of myth, which still speaks to the contemporary mind. "The idea that science can enable us to live without myths is one of these silly modern stories." In fact, he argues, science has created its own myth, "chief among them the myth of salvation through science....The idea that humans will rise from the dead may be incredible" he says, "but no more so than the notion that humanity can use science to remake the world"

this is the standpoint I argue from. I look at what religions have the best rituals, way of life.. and arguing about particular beliefs is an endless rabbit hole IMO.

but interesting thread though. when did you break from catholicism?
the whole point of the trinity is IMO to make it very confusing to understand what god is.

is he a human? is he a ghost? is he the father?

he is all of them and none of them.

the human is not the ghost.. but both the human and ghost is god etc.

I think it's a way of showing a type of "mystery"
What Did Yeshua (Jesus) Teach?

Yeshua (Jesus) did not teach the Trinitarian concept that He and the Holy Spirit were coequal and coexistent with the Father. He didn’t even teach that He was equal to the Father, much less coequal with Him.

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

How can they be coequal if, as the Scripture says, the Father is greater than the Son? They can’t! Yeshua (Jesus) said that everything He did was directed from the Father. His very will was overruled by the Father:
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. 43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. (Luke 22:42-43)

If they are coequal, how do they have separate wills? Why does Yeshua’s (Jesus’) will need to be strengthened?

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. 29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please Him.
(John 8:28-29)
Yeshua (Jesus) was taught of his Father? What would one coequal, coeternal being have to teach another coequal, coeternal being? How does Modalism (Oneness) deal with this scenario: the Father and the Son communicating with one another as two separate entities?

How is it that Yeshua (Jesus) is trying to . . . always do those things that please Him?

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (John 5:30)
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. (John 12:49-50)

It is obvious that Yeshua (Jesus) was doing and saying what the Father instructed him to do. Never does He imply that He is “co–anything” with the Father. Indeed, by His own words, we see that He is lovingly submitted to the Father, as we all should be.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. (Matt. 28:18)

The term “coequal” means a mutual sharing of everything—power, abilities, and attributes. If Yeshua (Jesus) were a coequal of YHWH Elohim, wouldn’t He already have the power referred to in this verse? Until you completely examine what Yeshua (Jesus) said about Himself and His relationship with YHWH, you cannot define “the Godhead!”
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it's all one god.

but three distinct entities.. it's like a riddle.

it's a way of showing people that god is unknowable.
in this way it's similar to zen or tao.. the unknowable tao . zen koans etc.

you cannot really make sense of the trinity.. it's nearly impossible to grasp.
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