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Boxing and wrestling have been European sports, and there are martial arts schools historically in India and Brazil, but in East Asia, Martial Arts reached a higher level of cultural importance. Why?

In medieval Europe, there were swords, knights, and later muskets, and dueling, hunting, jousting, and fencing became sports of cultural significance. But jousting died out in importance as cavalry acquired riflery. Horse riding and jousting tricks with horses have remained important in central Asian cultures.

With East Asian societies though, the importance is even greater. Both armed ("arme blanche"/not guns) and unarmed fighting is associated with monasteries and centuries of traditions with ninjas(Japanese warriors) and karate(Japan), Kung fu(China), Tae Kwan Do (Korea), Jujitsu, Sumo, and many other forms of martial arts. One argument is that East Asian society has a big focus on authority and militarism. But is that really more so than, say, ancient Roman, Mongolian, Russian or Arabian society? Europe has a history of militarism with the Crusaders, Chivalry. Prussia was long associated with militarism.

And even in dueling, boxing, and wrestling, the European practitioners were not divided into national schools with the intensity that East Asian ones are (Kung Fu vs. Tae Kwan Do, etc.).
Good question.
I'm sure the academic answer is Buddhism, but I don't really buy it.

As a teen, I was very interested in European MA traditions, but wherever you'd find practitioners, you'd essentially be finding LARPers.
No different from Paganism, once the chain of Priesthood is broken, there is no reviving it.
every society is hierarchical and IMO western societies are even more hierarchical than asian ones.

the diff. is westerners use good PR to enforce their hierarchy. it's not explicit, it's implicit

i think martial arts is valued in Asia because the transmission is from master to student through generations. east asians like the type of loyalty and discipline this engenders in people

but to be fair martial arts are not that popular in places like Korea or China.. parents don't want their kids to do it seriously because they don't see the financial prospects
(01-16-2018 01:37 PM)EVILYOSHIDA Wrote: [ -> ]but to be fair martial arts are not that popular in places like Korea or China.. parents don't want their kids to do it seriously because they don't see the financial prospects

True in the USA too. Parents go for TaeKwoDo, Judo and Karate as more flexible, more fun alternative to little-league and day-care, but once the kids get close to High-School, they get moved to team sports.

Wrestling is pretty huge in the USA, but the flaw as I see it, is there is no Adults program... anywhere. Once someone wins the Olympics, they come full-circle and end up an assistant coach at a High-School. Also The explosive way Americans Wrestle is too taxing on the body for anyone over 25 to compete in it seriously. (If you watch Russians Wrestle, they engage more gradually, use a system of tie-ups, are very slow-twitch.) Wrestlers who want to continue after 25 have no option but to join BJJ / MMA gyms.
yeah.

Also I think there has been a decline in male interest in fighting in recent years IMO

i see less fights, less arguments. people seem more chilled out. in this climate there will be less focus on martial arts

even in CHINA i used to see fights break out all the time in clubs.. but now it never happens. I think people are more chill in general.. instead there is just some type of brooding fear in people these days.
sports are also losing their luster due to all the scandals of recent years. rigged soccer games, rigged football games, RIGGED BOXING, RIGGED OLYMPICS

I wish I could relive the days when I stayed up all night just to listen or read a PRIDE PLAY BY PLAY.. then I would wait a week for the video to come out at the japanese rental store. that enthusiasm for something is priceless

what are people excited about these days?

it seems everything is just a stream like spotify.. an endless stream of MEDIOCRITY
(01-16-2018 01:37 PM)EVILYOSHIDA Wrote: [ -> ]i think martial arts is valued in Asia because the transmission is from master to student through generations. east asians like the type of loyalty and discipline this engenders in people

but to be fair martial arts are not that popular in places like Korea or China.. parents don't want their kids to do it seriously because they don't see the financial prospects

So martial arts used to be respected by a major portion of East Asian society, like jousting, chivalry, and fencing were in Europe at one point, but Martial Arts aren't widely practiced anymore by Asians because of financial issues?

I am skeptical that the practice of passing traditions down through students is a major reason for why martial arts have remained a major tradition in East Asia in particular. So many skills and teachings are handed down from master to student, from literacy, calendar making, architecture, gardening, etc. etc. etc., yet Martial Arts have been seen as a major special aspect of East Asian culture, far more than European culture.
well if you want to go deeper it could be due to Buddhist tradition

buddhist exercises were the precursor to martial arts like Shaolin
(01-16-2018 01:34 PM)kungfool Wrote: [ -> ]As a teen, I was very interested in European MA traditions, but wherever you'd find practitioners, you'd essentially be finding LARPers.
No different from Paganism, once the chain of Priesthood is broken, there is no reviving it.
What might you have in mind for martial arts in Europe?

Fencing, bullfighting, Russian peasant mob boxing, jousting, regular boxing, archery, kossack horse games, and wresting are still around or else easily reproduced.

Sparta's martial arts must have been epic, and I don't know if they became extinct through centuries.
yeah the cool thing about asian MA is that it doesn't have this dungeons and dragons feel to it

it feels like an authentic martial tradition that has spanned millenia
Aren't there semireligious beliefs associated with east Asian martial arts, like channeling chi energy in fighting? They mentioned chi energy in my tai kwan do class.
They are the only high IQ population that is also extremely clannish, which means traditions carry on longer, are taken more seriously, and invoke a greater intensity.

https://libraryofhate.com/fact/350
Buddhism began in India, but it doesn't seem particularly connected to martial arts there. The concept of the "Chi" seems specific to East Asia, and Tai Chi, which uses a soft version of martial arts poses, appears as much or more related to Taoism and Chinese folk religion than to Buddhism. Also, the Buddha lived in the 6th and 5th c. BC., and Buddhism may have come to China in the 3rd century BC, but martial arts predate that period in China.

Quote:Chinese martial arts

Legendary origins

According to legend, Chinese martial arts originated during the semi-mythical Xia Dynasty (夏朝) more than 4,000 years ago.[6] It is said the Yellow Emperor (Huangdi) (legendary date of ascension 2698 BCE) introduced the earliest fighting systems to China.[7] The Yellow Emperor is described as a famous general who, before becoming China’s leader, wrote lengthy treatises on medicine, astrology and the martial arts. One of his main opponents was Chi You (蚩尤) who was credited as the creator of jiao di, a forerunner to the modern art of Chinese wrestling.

Early history
The earliest references to Chinese martial arts are found in the Spring and Autumn Annals (5th century BCE),[9] where a hand-to-hand combat theory, one that integrates notions of "hard" and "soft" techniques, is mentioned.[10] A combat wrestling system called juélì or jiǎolì (角力) is mentioned in the Classic of Rites.[11] This combat system included techniques such as strikes, throws, joint manipulation, and pressure point attacks.

Philosophical influences

The ideas associated with Chinese martial arts changed with the evolution of Chinese society and over time acquired some philosophical bases: Passages in the Zhuangzi (庄子), a Daoist text, pertain to the psychology and practice of martial arts. Zhuangzi, its eponymous author, is believed to have lived in the 4th century BCE. The Dao De Jing, often credited to Lao Zi, is another Taoist text that contains principles applicable to martial arts. According to one of the classic texts of Confucianism, Zhou Li (周禮/周礼), Archery and charioteering were part of the "six arts" (simplified Chinese: 六艺; traditional Chinese: 六藝; pinyin: liu yi, including rites, music, calligraphy and mathematics) of the Zhou Dynasty (1122–256 BCE). The Art of War (孫子兵法), written during the 6th century BCE by Sun Tzu (孫子), deals directly with military warfare but contains ideas that are used in the Chinese martial arts.

Daoist practitioners have been practicing Tao Yin (physical exercises similar to Qigong that was one of the progenitors to T'ai chi ch'uan) from as early as 500 BCE. ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_martial_arts


Quote:Prehistory
The evolution of the martial arts has been described by historians in the context of countless historical battles. Building on the work of Laughlin (1956, 1961), Rudgley (2000) argues that the martial arts of the Chinese, Japanese and Aleut peoples, Mongolian wrestling all have "roots in the prehistoric era and to a common Mongoloid ancestral people who inhabited north-eastern Asia."
...
Chinese boxing can be reliably traced back to the Zhou dynasty (1122-255 BCE).[13] During the Spring and Autumn period, the literature mentions displays of archery, fencing and wrestling by nobles. Warfare between rival states was conducted according to Confucian chivalry (deference to rank, attacking in turn, food sent to hungry enemies). During the Warring States period, warfare grew bloodier and common men were expected to have skill in personal attack (chi-chi).[13]

Shaolin monastery records state that two of its very first monks, Huiguang and Sengchou, were expert in the martial arts years before the arrival of Bodhidharma.[14] The martial arts Shuāi Jiāo and Sun Bin Quan predate the establishment of the Shaolin Monastery by centuries.[15] as does shǒubó (手搏).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of...arts#China

Quote:Forming
Chinese Kung Fu started to form during the slavery society (around 11th century BC – 403 BC). Upon the foundation of the Xia Dynasty, it well developed to be more practical and standard to better serve battles. During the Shang and Zhou Dynasties (17th century BC – 256 BC), martial dance was used to train soldiers and enhance the morale of the army. The theory of Tai Chi was put forward then to lay a foundation for the early system of Chinese martial arts. Later, the vassal states in the Spring and Autumn Period (770 - 476 BC) paid much attention to the fighting skills used in the battles. Qi Huangong (716 – 643 BC), one of the state kings at that time, even held martial arts contests twice a year to select heroes.

Development
The development of Kung Fu started during the feudal society (221 BC - 1911). After the Emperor Qin Shihuang (259 - 210 BC) unified the central plain of China, the fighting skills among the soldiers gradually developed into Guanzhong Boxing which was called Hong Fist later. Wrestling, fencing, sword dance and sword fighting were popular during the Qin and Han Dynasties (221 BC – 220 AD). For example, Xiang Zhuang, a famous general at that time, played sword at Hongmen Banquet with the intention to kill Liu Bang, who later became the Emperor Gaozu of the Western Han Dynasty (206 BC – 24 AD).
https://www.travelchinaguide.com/intro/m...istory.htm
Lao Tzu and Sun Tzu (6th-5th c. BC) long predated the arrival of Buddhism in China (3rd c. BC). Lao Tzu's philosophy seems related to ideas found in Chinese martial arts, and Sun Tzu had an emphasis on martial arts on a grand scale, but I don't know if they specified individual fighting techniques like Kung Fu does.

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"The best fighter is never angry." Lao Tzu

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